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View Diary: Southern Europe "faced with a societal explosion" (227 comments)

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  •  The "moderates" are the most responsible (6+ / 0-)

    for all of this mess. MLK knew what the problem was.

    Complaining about anarchists who are the only ones who are fighting the fascists. The police are heavily infiltrated by fascists and do nothing or support the fascists when they go into immigrant neighborhoods and smash windows and beat people up. The cops supported the fascists when they went through a hospital to physically remove immigrant patients. I understand that a lot of people have a problem with the black bloc in the US but it is a very different situation in Greece. If the fascists are in the streets then violence is in fact the answer some times.

    •  The 20th Century taught different. (4+ / 0-)

      The Fascists goal, their aim, their hope, their strongest desire is conflict and chaos in the streets. The people get sick of the chaos and go for the Knight on a Horse.

      The Fascists are funded by the Big Money, they have the sympathy of the police, the Big Money runs the media.... this has been played out so many times that the "well, at least do something" when that something is, according to history since my grandfather's youth, exactly what your enemy wants... no, something smarter has to be done.


      We live in a nation where doctors destroy health; lawyers, justice; universities, knowledge; governments, freedom; the press, information; religion, morals; and our banks destroy the economy. -- Chris Hedges

      by Jim P on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 11:10:55 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  So you're saying that we should just let the (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        gjohnsit

        cops and the fascists kick the shit out of immigrants and stand by while they do it?

        That a sure-fire route to fascism.

        Fascists rise to power through violence, being nice and passive isn't going to do anything to stop these people. Fighting them will.

        •  No. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          StrayCat, pengiep
          something smarter has to be done.
          Doing the one thing which has guaranteed fascist victory over and over and over and over and over for the sake of "doing anything at all regardless of the consequences because I have this strong feeling"... well, it's failed over and over and over and over and over and over.

          The fascists will PAY YOU to show up and make the clashes more threatening to the average person. Helps them reach their goals that much faster. That's the record, like it or not. Frustrating or not.


          We live in a nation where doctors destroy health; lawyers, justice; universities, knowledge; governments, freedom; the press, information; religion, morals; and our banks destroy the economy. -- Chris Hedges

          by Jim P on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 01:12:00 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Nonsense, defending immigrants has not (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gjohnsit, JesseCW

            led to fascists gaining power. Fascists fighting in the streets has led to fascists gaining power. "Something smarter" sounds great, but it completely lacks content. I'm sure you have some sort of Gandhi/MLK thing in mind, but that simply won't work when the fascists have so thoroughly dehumanized their opponents. They were kicking sick people out of hospitals, and you think they can be reasoned with? Or somehow magically stopped by not confronting them?

            •  Fuck Gandhi. (0+ / 0-)

              I'm talking about what actually happens. Time after time after time.

              What's their game plan? To create chaos, and nothing else. Why? It's always worked. Why? Because if they can start SOME chaos, and then get others to join in the fighting to greatly increase the chaos, the people start demanding order.

              They certainly can't be reasoned with, but dammit, every time has shown that increased violence leads to totalitarian, usually right-wing, dominance. (And when a left faction beats them at their own game, you can't tell the difference from fascists anyway as they've internalized the brutality the fascists project.)

              You can't beat them at the direct violence level. They are better funded, are better armed, have the authorities on their side, have the media on their side, and will and have always won power as a result of introducing chaos.

              Jesus Christ, this is in their bloody playbooks. This is what they go out intending to get going. "Oh gosh, so if we just do exactly what they want us to do with their provocations, then we'll win! By Fucking Magic!!!"

              Whether you like it or not, whatever you feel about justice or right or wrong, however strongly you feel it, the fascists only and always benefit from spreading fear and chaos. That's just fucking reality.

              So what, do it anyway, because... why? A strong feeling. "I'll be their dupe in this game so I can feel like I'm doing something" is going to change things.

              Nope.

              Look, my own feelings are find out where the fuckers live and go terminate the problem directly. Very strongly. It's simple and it's obvious and it's direct.

              Sadly, the simple and obvious answer is the mind-numbingly stupid answer. The record is what it is: street confrontations with the fascists ALWAYS has helped the fascists gain more power. Always. Doesn't matter what anyone wishes, or feels.

              So unless you have a way to get massive countervailing force applied to the situation, you've got fantasies and playing their plays. Or something new is going to have to be created; or something from the MLK Gandhi Playbook is going to have to be employed.

              What you advocate, fuck, they'll PAY YOU to do that, don't you understand?


              We live in a nation where doctors destroy health; lawyers, justice; universities, knowledge; governments, freedom; the press, information; religion, morals; and our banks destroy the economy. -- Chris Hedges

              by Jim P on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 06:29:35 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  You're not groking how this works. You avoid (0+ / 0-)

                them in the street (and many Left factions did just that in Germany and Italy) and they will ambush you on the way home from rallies or just barge in and crack everyones heads with axe handles.

                Then they'll run to the papers (this shit only works when much of the media backs them anyway) showing the splinters they got from their own bats and singing a sob story about how you attacked them.

                If you don't fight them in the streets, they'll burn the fucking Reichstag and blame you for it.  

                income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

                by JesseCW on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 06:40:26 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Look at the 43 group (0+ / 0-)

                  They did a lot of good breaking the will of the Nazis.  

                  http://en.wikipedia.org/...

                  http://www.guardian.co.uk/...

                  I hope the Anarchists learn from history.  

                •  Um. Look what happened before (0+ / 0-)

                  the Reichstag, to the streets of Germany, and how the Nazis got in power in the first place. My point exactly.

                  You starve the fascists by getting the government to go after, issue arrests warrants for, the Big Money people who got them in this situation; then repudiating all the agreements and then building their own society again. Remember, the fascists are a (completely foreseen) consequence of the plans of the nice banker gentlemen whose feet barely ever touch the street.


                  We live in a nation where doctors destroy health; lawyers, justice; universities, knowledge; governments, freedom; the press, information; religion, morals; and our banks destroy the economy. -- Chris Hedges

                  by Jim P on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 07:03:51 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  The Nazi's got to power by walking into (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    AoT

                    peaceful meetings and savagely beating people.

                    By following people home and murdering them in alleys after opposition rallies.

                    You seem to have your order of operations badly screwed up.  The Beerhall Putsch failed miserably.  The Nazi movement was almost destroyed.  The street fighting didn't send anyone streaming to their ranks - it delegitimized them almost completely.

                    The entire appeal of fascists rests on their claims to strength.  If they're losing street brawls they're just seen as brutal clowns, not a path to law and order.

                    When they're attacking peaceful people and then pretending to have won street brawls, they can gain power if they have the backing of Capital.

                    income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

                    by JesseCW on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 07:11:22 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

              •  I'm not clear on what you're suggesting. Are you (0+ / 0-)

                suggesting something like directly attacking and killing the plutocrats in their gated communities? Sort of like the IRA used to blow up various governmental officials? Exactly what do you propose if not direct action against the plutocrats?

                "Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens," -Friedrich Schiller "Against Stupidity, the Gods themselves contend in Vain"

                by pengiep on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 07:15:41 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  Not true (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AoT, Dave the Rave, JesseCW

            Mindless violence and destruction helps fascists.
              But fighting fascists directly doesn't help them.

            ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

            by gjohnsit on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 01:44:20 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Street fights don't help us. Ever. (0+ / 0-)


              We live in a nation where doctors destroy health; lawyers, justice; universities, knowledge; governments, freedom; the press, information; religion, morals; and our banks destroy the economy. -- Chris Hedges

              by Jim P on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 06:59:25 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Read about the labor movement (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AoT

                They fought in the streets for around a hundred years.
                   The 1934 strikes in Toledo and Minneapolis were wong because they battled in the streets.

                ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

                by gjohnsit on Thu Feb 28, 2013 at 05:31:56 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

          •  That approach has worked so well for over American (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            gjohnsit, AoT

            fascists, hasn't it?

            That pretty much stopped being effective here about the time that overtly fascist organizations of the early 20's like the American Legion outlived their usefulness to the State.

            Since the thirties, American Nazi's have publicly been getting their asses stomped, and they haven't got jack to show for it.

            income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

            by JesseCW on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 06:36:36 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Greece owes money Rich Greeks have money (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT, JesseCW, ozsea1, pengiep

          ...in various European banks that want Greece to pay its loans. So all Angela Merkel and co. have to do is impound the Greek money sitting in the banks. Verifiy that it is legit, ie after tax income, else just "collect the taxes" and liquidate the debt.

      •  No, in some cases the people get sick of economic (8+ / 0-)

        chaos created by capitalism and turn to collectivism. Anarchism is not chaos. Anarchy means "without authority or rulers" and does not at all indicate chaos. It simply refers to a different way of organizing socially.

        Using self-management approaches, millions have organized successfully without turning authority over to ruling elites. Elites are not necessary to keep society functioning.

        Here's an example of worker self management of a factory in Greece. Note that this helped end chaos, rather than create some sort of crazed lawless mob running a factory:

        http://libcom.org/...

        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

        by ZhenRen on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 12:04:31 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  So I've heard (6+ / 0-)

          I hear a lot about this topic, from a personal level of having someone close to me who has become part of the anarchy movement in the US.

          Most US anarchists are not violent, they're just groups of people who reject what our government has become and wish to forge their own path in a collective way.

          It's what happens when liberal, politically active parents raise kids to be politically aware, then the Dem Party gets taken over by corporate donors and neo liberals and the economy goes to hell.   That's your basic recipe for new US anarchists today.

          It is an old strategy of tyrants to delude their victims into fighting their battles for them. FDR

          by Betty Pinson on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 12:33:17 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

        •  I said nothing about collectives. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ZhenRen

          I responded to "then violence is in fact the answer some times." And the history of results.


          We live in a nation where doctors destroy health; lawyers, justice; universities, knowledge; governments, freedom; the press, information; religion, morals; and our banks destroy the economy. -- Chris Hedges

          by Jim P on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 01:14:33 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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