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View Diary: Southern Europe "faced with a societal explosion" (227 comments)

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  •  Corrupt Shadow Banks running their government (17+ / 0-)

    Austerity foolishness that has only made the situation worse...

    The US political leaders of both parties should watch this with caution.  With a bad, stagnated economy, downwar wage pressure, austerity foolishness and high unemployment here, we could see the same thing happen.

    Of course the US has far more weapons and troops it can use against its own citizens to quell these disturbances, much more than Greece.

    It is an old strategy of tyrants to delude their victims into fighting their battles for them. FDR

    by Betty Pinson on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 12:21:33 PM PST

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    •  I think people overestimate the (7+ / 0-)

      utility of the police and the army in regards to domestic repression in the US. Sure, the police will beat the crap out of people on demand, but I highly doubt that the army would do the same under all but the worst circumstances. Building a mass movement means that people in the military will inevitably have family members and friends in the movement.

      The government can't do what they do in Afghanistan here, it just wouldn't happen.

      •  The FBI inflitrated Occupy groups (17+ / 0-)

        and set up entrapment schemes that ended up putting a lot of impoverished, innocent young men in jail.

        They and DHS coordinated, trained and supplied the local and state LE agencies who went in and bashed the hell out of Occupy protestors.  Quite a few were hurt, some seriously.

        It is an old strategy of tyrants to delude their victims into fighting their battles for them. FDR

        by Betty Pinson on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 12:36:57 PM PST

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        •  I'm very aware of that (7+ / 0-)

          As some of the people in jail are my friends. Occupy was, unfortunately, rather small as far as movements go. There was a lot of support, but most people couldn't or didn't directly participate. A mass movement that includes radical labor groups, radical social groups(a la The Black Panthers), anarchists, socialists, and others would be large enough and diverse enough that those tactics would be of limited viability. COINTELPRO was used to break up a mass movement and is used to stop the formation of others. If we act in solidarity with each other and stop the denunciations of others in the movement for their tactics then we could get a lot further.

          The problem is that we have too many "reasonable" people who swear that it can't or shouldn't be done. As always, those are the people who usher in Fascism. Because they want "security" or at least the illusion thereof.

      •  It depends (15+ / 0-)

        The military has been used all over the world to crush dissent. They usually respond with an iron fist on demand. It's no different here in America.
            The only catch is that the military is the last line of defense for the status quo. If the military doesn't turn out (and sometimes it doesn't), then the government falls and the leaders are lynched.

        ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

        by gjohnsit on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 01:40:53 PM PST

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        •  It has, but the US has been different (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          ozsea1, Subterranean

          for the most part. I just can't see any of the people I know who are in the armed forces being okay with bombing cities in the US. Sure, there was the national guard in LA during the Rodney King riots, but that was a bit different, more peace keeping than anything else. And even then I think that the racial aspects of that event made for a different situation.

          I'd add that there is this myth that the fact that the government has tanks means any efforts are doomed to fail even though the feds aren't going to devastate major urban areas to stop some sort of civil disturbance. The army may go in to "keep order," that ever that may mean in the given cases, but they sure as hell aren't going to start shelling San Francisco or New York.

          •  I wouldn't count on that (10+ / 0-)

            Once you start labelling rioters as "terrorists", and the propaganda machine kicks in, the military usually has little problem shooting civilians.

               Consider that the military has been called out on American protestors before. The New York City Draft riots is one example. The Great Railroad Strike of 1877 is another.
                There were also countless clashes between the national guard and strikers. I can't think of a single time when the men in uniform failed in their duty to protect the property of the wealthy by shooting working men and women.

            ¡Cállate o despertarás la izquierda! - protest sign in Spain

            by gjohnsit on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 02:05:07 PM PST

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          •  They're ok with doing it in other countries. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            snoopydawg, gjohnsit

            There's nothing magical about American faces in a crowd.

            income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

            by JesseCW on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 04:59:06 PM PST

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            •  Seriously? There's nothing about the fact that the (0+ / 0-)

              people would be speaking the same language? That it may well be people the soldiers know. Maybe you haven't noticed the similarities between the people we've been killing overseas lately.

              •  Plenty of Iraqi's spoke English. It didn't change (7+ / 0-)

                shit.

                Americans are not unique.  We are not exceptional. We are not somehow fundamentally different from other peoples around the world.

                The times when troops have refused to fire on the public are so rare that each one is a matter of great historical interest.  

                Veteran or "blooded" troops are even less likely to refuse such an order.  They've already broken through most of their innate revulsion at the thought of killing other human beings.

                It won't be local units doing the firing on people they know.  Whenever possible, units from hundreds of miles away or more will be brought in to do the killing.

                income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

                by JesseCW on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 06:57:54 PM PST

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                •  The times that you've heard of (0+ / 0-)

                  You think it's any surprise that we never hear of troops refusing to fire? Did you see a single news story about troops in Iraq refusing to fire on civilians? I certainly didn't.

                  But do you really think that in nine years of war there wasn't a single case of soldiers refusing to fire on civilians? You and I both know that the government lies, and yet one of us believes their claim of omnipotence when it comes to controlling the military. I assume you know what fragging was. Maybe you've missed the recent spate of ex-military killing cops. Maybe you missed that.

                  I know where you're coming from, but let me tell you, this time is different. This time, we know what we're up against and what we're up against has no fucking clue what we are. Do you realy think that Manning was the only member of anonymous in the military?

                  •  I'm always wary when someone claims, (0+ / 0-)

                    "This time it's different."

                    The military may need to take the squeamishness of some troops to fire on Americans into account, but I don't doubt they can field troops in sufficient numbers to quell virtually any civil unrest.

                    They always have.

                    Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. - Gandalf the Grey

                    by No Exit on Thu Feb 28, 2013 at 04:12:27 AM PST

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                    •  They won't quell US civil dissent with artillery (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      AoT

                      No how, no way.
                      Its mindless paranoia and ignorance to think so.

                      Happy just to be alive

                      by exlrrp on Thu Feb 28, 2013 at 06:41:47 AM PST

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                      •  Never say never. It's happened before. (0+ / 0-)

                        We may not be there yet, but with all this austerity talk its certainly not inconceivable.

                        Deserves it! I daresay he does. Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then do not be too eager to deal out death in judgement. For even the very wise cannot see all ends. - Gandalf the Grey

                        by No Exit on Thu Feb 28, 2013 at 07:13:11 PM PST

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          •  Well, it's happened before. Once the ante is upped (4+ / 0-)

            just about anything goes.

            25 Years Ago: Philadelphia Police Bombs MOVE Headquarters Killing 11, Destroying 65 Homes

            http://www.democracynow.org/...

            And under the duress of "terrorist threat", I can see it happening again.

            Physics is bulls**t. Don't let them fool you. Fire IS magic.

            by Pescadero Bill on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 07:59:06 PM PST

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        •  Ronald Reagan's 1957 commencement (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          StrayCat, JesseCW, ozsea1, gjohnsit

          address at Eureka College:

          I recall my own days on this campus in the depths of the depression. Even with study and reading I don't think you can quite understand what it was like to live in an America where the Illinois National Guard, with fixed bayonets, paraded down Michigan Avenue in Chicago as a warning to the more than half million unemployed men who slept every night in alleys and doorways under newspapers.
          http://www.pbs.org/...
          •  more (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            StrayCat, ozsea1, RWood, Subterranean
            We attended a college that made it possible for us to attend regardless of our lack of means, that created jobs for us, so that we could eat and sleep, and that allowed us to defer our tuition and trusted that they could get paid some day long after we had gone. And the professors, God bless them, on this campus, the most dedicated group of men and women whom I have ever known, went long months without drawing any pay. Sometimes the college, with a donation of a little money or produce from a farm, would buy groceries and dole them out to the teachers to at least try and provide them with food. We know something of your heritage, but even if we had been able to pay as many of you have paid for your education we, and you, must realize that the total price paid by any student of this college is far less than it costs this college to educate you. This is true not only of Eureka, but of the hundreds of schools and universities across the land.

        •  agreed (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          nuthangerfarm

          and here's hoping (redacted)....and the banksters (redacted)...

          The "extreme wing" of the Democratic Party is the wing that is hell-bent on protecting the banks and credit card companies. ~ Kos

          by ozsea1 on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 06:46:09 PM PST

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      •  What people will do to others for you, they will (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        la urracca, nuthangerfarm, snoopydawg

        do you for others.

        Our National Guard, let alone the standing army, has rarely failed to fire on unarmed civilians when ordered to do so.  

        In fact, they sometimes haven't even waited for the orders.

        income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

        by JesseCW on Wed Feb 27, 2013 at 04:57:04 PM PST

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    •  betty, I think it is more (0+ / 0-)

      corrupt shadow companies running the bank and the World.
      How many leaders have been vetted bybthe Bildeberg group?  
      If this runs in to CT, I apologize.
      But all the austerity hitting one country after another?  
      Shock Doctrine, anyone?  

      Gitmo is a Concentration Camp. Not a Detention Center. Torture happens at Concentration Camps. Torture happens at Gitmo. How much further will US values fall? Where is YOUR outrage at what the United States does in OUR names?

      by snoopydawg on Thu Feb 28, 2013 at 12:05:52 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

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