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View Diary: Transwoman sues California university after being expelled for fraudulently being herself (122 comments)

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  •  I'm sorry, but when did I say that? (0+ / 0-)

    I've been trying to reconcile the three major assertions I've seen in this diary and its comments, namely:

    * "transgenders should be treated no differently from any other student"
    * "there's no reason for the school to even know that a student is transgender"
    * "it's about gender, not sex"
    from the perspective of those services a college is called upon to provide to most (or all) of its students.  I said, in an earlier comment, that I realize this question is not relevant to the particular case discussed in the diary; I raise it because I'm thinking beyond the private CBU and wondering how this would be handled consistently across public institutions of all sizes.  I also assumed that the real test(s) would come as transgendered students received equal treatment across ALL services provided to students by the institution.

    So, my thought process was basically, "OK, let's assume that all three of those arguments are correct; in what areas of collegiate life would that present a potential problem to the college?"  (Please note that my intitial assumption was one of acceptance.)  Off the top of my head, the result is a rather short list, most of which I think have fairly straightforward answers.  In no particular order:

    1) Student health services - if the student expects to receive medical treatment (especially emergency treatment) from the school, the medical staff needs full disclosure.  (This disclosure seems both logical and inescapable.)

    2) Intercollegiate athletics - if a transgender student wants to participate in sex-separated sports activities at an NCAA member school, the NCAA transgender policy must be followed; thus, disclosure is required.

    3) Public facilities - as mentioned earlier, locker rooms, pools, and gyms often have communal dressing/bathing/shower facilities.  (A bit of construction work could create more privacy.)

    4) Fraternity/sorority membership - This seems more of an issue for the fraternities/sororoties than it does for the college itself.  

    5) Sex-specific programs, student organizations, designated scholarships, etc. - these would have to be clarified and/or changed to account for transgendered participants or applicants.

    6) School housing - of which the vast majority is assigned by sex, not gender.  Furthermore, some schools require all freshmen to live on campus, while others require all students to live on campus throughout their academic career.  Finally, single occupancy in school housing is not always available.

    To me, the last one seems the most difficult, by far, for a college to manage IF all three of the assertions I mentioned are correct.

    Please believe that I'm not trying to make anyone feel "weird", nor am I trying to "deny...an education" to anyone; I'm simply thinking through the question in its entirety, and this struck me as a major point of conflict between "treated like every other student" and "the school doesn't even need to know."  It also seems like the issue most likely to affect the largest number of students directly.

    As a result of this thought experiment, I'm leaning toward the notion that there is no reason for transgender students to self-identify to a public college/university UNLESS they plan to make use of particular sex-specific services/activities provided by the school.  Of the sex-specific things that came to mind, two (medical care and intercollegiate athletics) pretty much demand disclosure, as I see it; I'm just trying to think through how the school would handle what I see as the toughest one (school housing).   The problem is exacerbated at those schools which require students to live in on-campus housing.  For instance, Indiana University requires freshmen to live in University housing; how should they handle housing requests from transgender students?  (Note that there is an exception process, but that transgender status is not included as a qualifying criterion; that would have to be requested on a case-by-case basis, which would compel disclosure.)  This also seems to the point at which the question of individual student rights is likely to be the most in conflict between individual students; if the school assigns roommates in sex-specific facilities, does a student have a right NOT to have a transgendered roommate?

    I NEVER said I didn't want this to work, but I am thinking about how it could/should be made to work at public colleges/universities.   If you read malice or condescension in my comments, none was intended.

    I'll shut up now.

    •  Start here unless you would prefer a text format. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Mortifyd, rserven

      Just try and forget everything you think you know about Transgender and we will start from scratch.

      "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

      by Horace Boothroyd III on Sat Mar 02, 2013 at 09:53:23 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  if you just treat us as the gender we are (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Horace Boothroyd III, rserven

      and quit trying to make us into some other category - then none of those things have to be an issue for anyone.  You are actively looking for ways to make things harder for us in every single post you've made.  

      I'm a man.  I should qualify for male scholarships.  I should and did participate in sport as a male. I registered for selective service as a male - because MALE.  I lived in a dorm room at a single sex religious school as a male with a male roomie - because MALE.

      There is a straight fraternity right now raising money for their newly inducted FtM brother to get chest surgery - because HE chose to disclose to them - he wasn't excluded because he needed surgery.   Disclosure to medical personnel is covered under HIPPA and can't be disclosed to the school at large - it's private, just like anyone else's heath information - being trans is not a public health issue.    

      I think what you don't want to actually come out and say is that you consider MtFs to be men.  You don't give a shit about FtMs - we can pass, a man with a vagina isn't threatening - but oh boy, what if she's hot and still has a cock.  

      This isn't Bosom Buddies.  They are women, not men trying to hook up with the ladies or get free peeks.  And in the case like the young woman in the diary, she's been living female since the age of 13 in Catholic schools.  She didn't have a normal male puberty.  She's not rocking a big ole man penis or body shaving every day - and women shave their legs in the shower, not in their dorm room.

      And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

      by Mortifyd on Sat Mar 02, 2013 at 10:05:19 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  I have made no assumptions about you... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        rserven

        and I think I've treated our differences of opinion courteously.  I didn't throw any personal attacks your way,  and I never summarily dismissed anything you said.   I don't mind being told that you think I'm wrong about something, but please don't presume that you can read my mind and know what I do or don't "want to actually come out and say."  

        After watching the video that Horace embedded above, the thing that really jumped out at me was the notion that what they called the "authentic gender model" is a range in every characteristic.  I'll admit that when I've thought about such things in the past, I've tended to think in binary or, at most, trinary terms; it's unsettling  (to me) to think about sex, gender role, gender identity AND sexual orientation alike in terms of broad ranges. For me, that unsettled feeling almost always means that I have more thinking to do...

        I do think, after reading everyone's responses to my comments, that a lot of these situations are going to boil down to what people DO, not what they ARE.  I've never been a fan of excess, and (like you) I'm basically a modest person.  I do think that some combinations on those scales could lead to problems in an environment like a college dorm (as would any of them if taken to extremes), but I can also see that many would not.

        I'm going to chew on this some more...thanks for your responses tonight.

        •  I'm actually a very binary person (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          rserven

          where others are not - but I don't have an issue with how other people express themselves, I'm just binary. One to the other, no muss no fuss.  As you can see from the video, many other people are not so binary.  KOS is the ONLY space I consider semi safe to be open about my transition.  The rest of my life, electronic and meat spaced is not.  Like I said - very binary personally.

          I have an extremely low tolerance for people trying to throw up roadblocks - which is what your posts seemed to be doing.  The more we tried to explain, the more you seemed to dig in on other people having a right to our private lives and using them to destroy us - which is why I got angry.

          I've been attacked, beaten up - had blackmail attempted - so it's not a light thing for me to be told someone else has a Right to get in my undies without my consent.  Perhaps now you can see how horrifying that is to us.  We have a much higher than average risk of violent death due to bigotry.  Much higher.

          One of the points of going to college is to expose yourself to new concepts and the beginnings of the "real world" where you can't be sheltered from things you think are "icky" or "hard" - most large corporations have transgendered people working for them - whether you know it or not.  I seriously do not think that a dorm is that much of a big deal if you can separate sexual behaviour and attraction from body parts.

          I'm glad you found it interesting.

          And we sail and we sail and we never see land, just the rum in the bottle and a pipe in my hand...

          by Mortifyd on Sun Mar 03, 2013 at 01:15:20 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

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