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View Diary: Michigan Gov. Rick Snyder deals democracy another blow (291 comments)

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  •  No one is arguing about the city's finances. (7+ / 0-)

    And I understand that the state constitution says this is technically legal.  But why is even that ok in a democracy?

    And I don't understand why you show absolutely no concern about the lack of accountability that EFMs have.

    •   (8+ / 0-)

      Accountability to whom? The same people who voted so stupidly and continued to do so for decades?

      Why do you think that its ok for the rest of the state to have to pay the bill for this corruption?

      Did they have a vote when they were put on the hook as co-signers for these bonds?

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      by takascar2 on Fri Mar 01, 2013 at 02:34:01 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Because (7+ / 0-)

        that's how a democracy works, goddammit.  You vote for your leaders to represent you.

        Taking that away from anyone is authoritarian.

        For that matter, what makes your money more important than those of the people in Detroit?  What makes the rest of us more important than them, that we get to vote for our local leaders and they don't?

        This whole idea of "well, if you consistently vote for the wrong people you lose your voting privileges" is bullshit, and anti-democratic, and I can't fucking believe how many people on here are advocating for that.

        •   (8+ / 0-)

          The people of the state have the power to change their constitution anytime they want. They have not chosen to.

          I get sick and tired of people claiming random rights that do not exist just because they "think they should have them".

          Go out and advocate for the rights you "think" you have and if you can get your fellow citizens to agree in enough numbers, you can give yourselves those rights.  If not, you DON'T HAVE THOSE RIGHTS.

          Why is everyone worried about RIGHTS more than RESPONSIBILITIES?

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          by takascar2 on Fri Mar 01, 2013 at 02:47:42 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Why are you NOT worried (8+ / 0-)

            about the fact that the state is replacing elected officials with people who are only accountable to the governor, and have the right to fire anyone they want and void contracts?

            I would argue that as someone who lives in a democracy, and yet is advocating for disenfranchising an entire city, you're the one who's not concerned with responsibilities.

            •  Deficit is 30% of Budget (4+ / 0-)

              If I were a city worker, that's what I would be worried about.

              City workers are one judge away from seeing their salaries and pensions cut by 50%.

              Pensions were slashed in Central Falls, RI.  And they can be slashed in Detroit.

              If I were advising Detroit city workers, I would ask that they coalesce behind a city consolidation effort.  That's their best bet.

              Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. www.hamiltonproject.org

              by PatriciaVa on Fri Mar 01, 2013 at 03:03:53 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  good question (0+ / 0-)

              As I understand it from out of state, the law was repealed by initiative that was fought, tooth and font leading, but still passed repeal. Snyder, if he is a true small d democrat and especally if he is a smallr republican, should have had the goodsense to not exercise this power when the lege so  defiantly reenected the piece of shit law with crap written in that innoculates it from further initiative.

              I had always thought the phrase "ballots not bullets" would always be  hyperbolic in my own ountry. Sadly, not only is this no longer the case. I have to struggle to think of reasons to give somene not to resort to the latter.

              Have you heard? The vice president's gone mad. - Bob Dylan, 1966

              by textus on Sat Mar 02, 2013 at 02:01:17 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

          •  the PEOPLE of the state (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sethtriggs, moose67, The Dude 415

            didn't vote to reinstall a stupid workaround. the GERRYMANDEREDD TEApig state legislature voted it and it was signed into law by a lame duck governor.  The PEOPLE of Michigan didn't vote to remove a law and then reinstate it.  the lame duck government did that.

            I fart in your general direction. Now run away before I taunt you some more

            by Adelante on Sat Mar 02, 2013 at 02:06:23 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Lame duck Governor? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              auapplemac, The Dude 415

              Please check to see when he is up for reelect.  The governor is so worried about his reelection, why would he vote agains the majority of people who voted to repeal the EFM law?  Because his legislature is a bunch of racist Teapers who not only did this but want to to electoral vote allocation that would have handed the majority of Michigan's electoral votes to Romney even though Obama won by 9% and 300,000 votes.  This is democracy?

          •  The people of Iran (or Saudia Arabia) have the (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            auapplemac

            power to change their constitution anytime they want. They have not chosen to.

            I get sick and tired of people claiming random rights that do not exist just because they "think they should have them".

            Go out and advocate for the rights you "think" you have and if you can get your fellow citizens to agree in enough numbers, you can give yourselves those rights.  If not, you DON'T HAVE THOSE RIGHTS.

            Why is everyone worried about RIGHTS more than RESPONSIBILITIES?

            You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

            by Throw The Bums Out on Sat Mar 02, 2013 at 03:40:25 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

          •  I suggest you read the Constitution again... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            The Dude 415

            I direct you to the 9th ammendment....

            "The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."
            This means that ALL rights are guaranteed by the Constitution, even the ones that are not mentioned explicitly. None are ever GIVEN. You already have them.
             

            "Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell." ~ Edward Abbey

            by SaraBeth on Sun Mar 03, 2013 at 02:40:02 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

        •  Many people believe that a bankruptcy judge (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          umjm13

          would salvage your precious democratic principles.

          Your concern for the actual social and living conditions for the residents of Detroit is sorely lacking in your quest for local representational purity.

          But there is absolutely nothing pure or democratic about the segregation along municipal lines of metropolitan Detroit.

      •  takascar2 - You wrote; (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        The Dude 415
        "The same people who voted so stupidly and continued to do so for decades?"
        By that logic someone should have taken Bush, Jr. out of office and the nation run by bean counters.

        Of course, that is called a coup....  

        Are you in favor of overriding the votes of the people if their choices are, as you said, "stupid" and vote for someone you don't approve of?

        And, whom do you suggest should be judging what is "stupid" and what is not?

        "Growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of the cancer cell." ~ Edward Abbey

        by SaraBeth on Sun Mar 03, 2013 at 02:33:54 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  excuse me? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        The Dude 415

        Your claim is that with other Detroiters I voted for deindustrialization? I voted for redlining? I voted to kick out white people? I voted to gut social programs from Reagan forward?

        Take your eye off the local ballot box and look to the boardroom and to DC just a little bit more if you want to identify the causes of Detroit's decline.

    •  Actually, as much as I appreciate your comments (10+ / 0-)

      Dude and agree with them, as to finances, there are allegations by the mayoral candidates that a lot of the problem is that funds due to the City have been withheld.  I honestly don't know how accurate that is, but certainly important to take into consideration:

      From one of the Mayoral candidates:  "The validity of the EFM and EM laws notwithstanding, I am glad to know now that we have been joined by other civic leaders who agree with our assessment, that if the City were to collect the money it is owed by private corporations and by the State of Michigan, there would be no economic crisis."

      And you do NOT teach someone how to fish by taking away the pole.... and the lake.

      Snyder has got to go.  

    •  We are a Democratic Republic. We are not a pure (0+ / 0-)

      democracy. What do you do when an entity proves it cannot govern itself and is causing a drain on the rest of the system.

      It’s the Supreme Court, stupid! Followed by: It's always the Supreme Court! Progressives will win only when we convince a majority that they, too, are Progressive.

      by auapplemac on Sun Mar 03, 2013 at 12:49:05 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  It hasn't proven it can't govern itself. (0+ / 0-)

        Read some of the other comments here about the underlying causes of the city's problems.

        To say "Detroit can't govern itself" is the equivalent of saying "Those damn black people don't know what's good for them", especially since almost every city this has happened in has been majority African-American.

        You know what's causing a drain on the rest of the system?  The aforementioned taxes that are owed by some of the biggest corporations and wealthiest individuals in the state.  Should we allow the state to take them over too to fix this problem?

        All one has to do is look at the history of what the EMs have done here to see this isn't really about helping the city or the state.

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