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View Diary: Shocking! Catholics don't care what their Church says about ... anything (218 comments)

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  •  What does all this say about someone who (16+ / 0-)

    belongs to an institution, gives money to it, knows it's corrupt and doesn't follow its rules?

    Why stay in it? Why enable the corruption? What is the hold this institution has over people that would cause them to behave so irrationally?  

    I think it's fear. Fear that if they leave the church, they will die unblessed and go to hell.  If that isn't a classic example of brainwashing and cult behavior, I don't know what is.

    How can anyone of good conscience continue to participate in, expose their children to, and tithe to this monstrousity of an institution?

    Liberal Catholics need to realize that they will NEVER change this institution and walk out the doors... fast!

    •  I ask this question all the time... eom (4+ / 0-)

      'Guns don't kill people, video games do - paraphrased from Lamar Alexander (Sen-R-TN)'

      by RichM on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 01:47:03 PM PST

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    •  Agreed. I 'voted w/ my feet' decades ago (8+ / 0-)

      and have never regretted it--very happy in my Unitarian Universalism!

      [Take the Belief-o-matic quiz....]

      "Push the button, Max!" Jack Lemmon as Professor Fate, The Great Race

      by bartcopfan on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 02:56:05 PM PST

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    •  The RCC is openly sexist and homophobic. (6+ / 0-)

      Like you, I also wonder why anyone remains in the Roman Catholic Church.  What's more, I fail to understand how anyone who considers himself a progressive can remain part of an institution that is openly and rabidly sexist and homophobic.  Would these same people remain members of other organizations with similar beliefs?  If not, why do they make an exception for the church?

      "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

      by FogCityJohn on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 02:59:12 PM PST

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      •  What... (0+ / 0-)

        What's the basis for all that moral authoritarianism and objective truth-speak on your part? Lot of moralizing for someone that, I presume, doesn't really like pontificating.

        •  So you have no answers (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FogCityJohn, Voiceless, Fishtroller01

          to FogCityJohn's questions?

          Good to know.

          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

          by corvo on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 06:59:39 PM PST

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        •  Huh? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          "Moral authoritarianism"?  Would you care to define your term?  I mean, it sounds really scary and all, but I was really just asking what I think are pretty obvious questions.  As a so-called "libertarian Catholic," perhaps you'd like to provide some answers.  

          If you continue to be a member of the Catholic Church, how do you justify your support for an organization that makes no secret of its homophobia and sexism?  How can you continue to support an organization that has been involved in a decades-long attempt to obstruct justice in the now infamous sexual abuse cases?

          But perhaps asking such tough moral questions of you is what you consider "moral authoritarianism."

          "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

          by FogCityJohn on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 11:28:21 PM PST

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      •  Cultural identity, connection, (0+ / 0-)

        longing to connect with the divine, a love of the Mass, Catholic art, music, and the idea that embracing the divine is the source of loving service to others.

        That's why I stayed in as long as I did.  It's the hierarchy, and the large percentage of mean, conservative Catholics  where I live  -- and the history of the priests who abused children and were still serving Mass fifteen months ago that drove me out.

        I miss being a Catholic.  And while I have flirted with other Churches, they don't feel the same.  But I will always live my life in service to others as my way to give thanks to the divine for my wonderful, albeit challenging, life.

        "Since when did obeying corporate power become patriotic." Going the Distance

        by Going the Distance on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 10:05:39 PM PST

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        •  Good for you. You made a hard (0+ / 0-)

          choice.  I'm not sure what you mean by "the divine", but it seems to me that the feelings you get about that are all generated by your own brain. Therefore, wherever your brain goes, so goes your connection with that "divine" thing. Actually all that is just imaginary, you know, but whatever floats your boat.

          •  Imaginary? Neuroscience is actually (0+ / 0-)

            tracking the faith part of the brain.  I would say more tuned-in, like a quality radio receive.

            "Since when did obeying corporate power become patriotic." Going the Distance

            by Going the Distance on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 06:06:18 PM PST

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            •  Yes, there is a sort of "faith" area of the brain, (0+ / 0-)

              but is it not "receiving" any information from outside. When that area of the brain is destroyed by stroke or other reasons, the person loses their ability to "believe" or conjure up the "faith" feelings and emotions they had before.  This has been documented.

    •  My Episcopal church (5+ / 0-)

      is packed with gay people who got tired of the Catholic church telling them they were "intrinsically disordered."

      Jon Husted is a dick.

      by anastasia p on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 03:53:03 PM PST

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      •  I'm a former RC Episcopalian now (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Not gay, just sick of it all. Italian-American, raised Catholic, went to Catholic schools through high school. Almost at my 20-year anniversary of being re-confirmed in TEC. I've always loved being part of a spiritual community and I've found one that embraces me, so I am lucky.

        The braying sheep on my TV screen make this boy shout -- make this boy scream -- I'm going underground...

        by jamfan on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 05:15:11 PM PST

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      •  Interesting (0+ / 0-)

        Considering Episcopalian, Anglican and mainstream Protestant communities are floundering. Guess yours is the exception.

        •  Of course they're floundering. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          devis1, Fishtroller01

          They're only waystations on the path from superstition to knowledge and understanding.

          Dogs from the street can have all the desirable qualities that one could want from pet dogs. Most adopted stray dogs are usually humble and exceptionally faithful to their owners as if they are grateful for this kindness. -- H.M. Bhumibol Adulyadej

          by corvo on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 07:00:49 PM PST

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        •  Hey Libertarian... (0+ / 0-)

          I sense a bit of arrogance on your part.  Catholicism is the biggest floudering fish in the world.  Can't happen fast enough for me.

    •  The distinctiveness (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Cassandra Waites, tobendaro

      & dailyness of Roman Catholic practice is difficult to duplicate outside of the Church. More & more Catholics are inclined to to disregard  these practices anyway (& many were when I was a kid), & for them I doubt Catholicism means much except as a family inheritance they no longer much value.   But those who do,  & derive great spiritual comfort from them, several Catholics I know, find ways of steering their financial contributions into programs & missions they support. It is very important to listen to Catholics & ex-Catholics. They have stories to tell. Some have had their hearts broken. Others have found ways of adapting, & of raising children as responsible, progressive, compassionate Catholic human beings, of using the Church to act with love & charity.

      "There ain't no sanity clause." Chico Marx

      by DJ Rix on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 03:56:36 PM PST

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      •  I understand much of that, as my journey from (0+ / 0-)

        Protestantism to atheism was a long hard slog. What I learned on that journey is that compassion is not related to religion, it's related to humanism. Some people have good hearts and some don't. While they may feel that it is religious teachings that made them behave that way, I think they would have been good charitable people no matter what they were taught.

        For Catholics (I have many Catholic friends) part of the difficulty is that it is almost a cultural identity, like being Irish or German or even Jewish.  It is hard to leave when that is so engrained as a personal identity.

        I encourage people to walk out the doors for a couple of reasons.  One, they are suffering from institutional humiliation. Two, as long as the Catholic church gets their money, it will continue to make life miserable for the rest of us.  Look at all the holds that church has on our laws and our lives. All over this country, women are denied their reproductive rights because this country allows the Church to own hospitals.  

        I truly do want to see this institution fail and fade away, and it won't happen unless thinking Catholics walk out.

        •  I do not encourage Catholics (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          to walk away, & I am familiar with Catholicism in a way few protestants are, & value the cultural "distinctiveness,"  which had rich ethnic qualities when I was growing up.   A protestant-turned-atheist has zilch credibility. It is arrogance to presume Catholics are unaware of the institutional failings,  ignorant of the options, mistaken in their beliefs because one does not share those beliefs,  & unable to make choices. Your "hard slog" is your experience.

          "There ain't no sanity clause." Chico Marx

          by DJ Rix on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 01:51:00 PM PST

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          •  The cultural "distinctiveness" (0+ / 0-)

            that you feel trumps the "protestant turned atheist" experience is simply an example of the fact that the Catholic church has woven a tighter web of fallacies and nonsense around their adherents brains. In other words, they are better at brainwashing than most Protestant churches.   It's not "arrogance" to make the observations I make about people who stay inside of something that is so incredibly corrupt and destructive. It's concern and sympathy. The same one would feel for anyone else who's mind is captured by a cult and who can't even see what it is doing to them and to the world.

            "Rich ethnic qualities" is a meaningless description of a community if that community is formulated by an institution based on lies and immorality.

            •  "Rich ethnic qualities" DJ Dix says (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:

              IMO ,not that it would be likely to change his opinion, he needs to read "Constantine's Sword" written by an ex priest
              and certainly gives the lie to Catholic understanding of what Cultural Distinctiveness is and respect for it if it is someone elses cultural distinctiveness.

            •  I think you need to back off (0+ / 0-)

              & demonstrate the best example of true tolerance, which is listening. Your "concern" & "sympathy" may be from arrogance.

              "There ain't no sanity clause." Chico Marx

              by DJ Rix on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 11:07:48 AM PST

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              •  Yes, because there is absolutely (0+ / 1-)
                Recommended by:
                Hidden by:
                DJ Rix

                no arrogance in the belief that your religion has the only keys to heaven.

                However, you are right. I have absolutely no sense of tolerance for the Catholic Church.  Note I said the Church. I "tolerate" my Catholic friends all the time by just listening to the angst and interior conflict this religion is bringing them.

    •  My thoughts on this have changed (5+ / 0-)

      I don't think its fear.  Like so much of human behavior, I think it has to do partially with identity - someone raised within a church finds that a fundamental aspect of their personality, and membership in a community is a powerful thing.  I also think it's partially aesthetic.  Religion can give one a context within which not just to explain the world, but to appreciate the world.  

      Now, I was blissfully raised without religion and don't have a shred of faith in me.  I don't frankly see religion as a useful way to explain the world. But strangely enough, while I've become more sceptical of those who use religion to explain the world I've become more... well, empathetic... to those who see religion as a way to appreciate the world.  Any honest (or intelligent) religious person will tell you that doubt is actually central to faith.  It does seem to me at the end of the day, religious people may have doubts but take an aesthetic choice to err in favor of belief.  Anyway, with thoughtful religious people, I don't think faith is easily reduceable to motives of fear or rigidity.  At least not in the religious people I know.  

      Perhaps that contrast between skepticism in the 21st century about religion's explanatory value versus embrace of its aesthetic value explains why so many can remain Catholic while ignoring so much of the Church's teaching.

      “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

      by ivorybill on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 04:21:39 PM PST

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    •  It's a 2000 year old institution, or so. (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cgvjelly, Sharoney, evilstorm

      Why don't you renounce your citizenship if you don't want to participate in and pay taxes for things our government does that you disagree with? Or denounce the nation as a whole. for the "sins" of your political opponents.

      A lot of people are Catholic because they are born and raised Catholic and that identity supersedes what other individuals, whether in the clerical hierarchy or lay people, say or do.

      I went to a secular high school where sexual abuse of students occurred. I was educated at that school. That's just a fact. It occurs quite prevalently outside the confines of the Catholic church.

      Being a Catholic is just a fact sometimes. And despite what people may think, it's very much an individualized experience.

      Also what is newsworthy about the Catholic church makes up a tiny proportion of what the Catholic Church consists of.

      My particular church is very liberal. Very liberal priests. I don't want to change them.

    •  Why stay in? Why enable? (0+ / 0-)

      Reminds me of how I felt as an American during the Bush Administrations.

      If you want something other than the obvious to happen; you've got to do something other than the obvious. Douglas Adams

      by trillian on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 07:57:56 PM PST

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    •  FishtrollerGiven wha U sa Here ma B place 4 SNARK (0+ / 0-)

      Noting a comment way above saying," belief in whether the Holy Spirit proceeds with the Father and the Son or through the Father and the Son.
      I must wonder: If the Holy Spirit were elected to head the Catholic Church, coming through the Father & the Son would it possibly be referred to as THE POOP?

      •  I don't know. (0+ / 0-)

        I am personally philosophically opposed to believing in things that are not true... or real..... like "holy ghosts". People sure get their heads and lives wrapped up in a lot of superstition celophane, don't they?

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