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  •  Because the criticisms of Obama... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Diogenes2008, alain2112, kat68

    ...ignores the REALITY of Republican obstructionism.

    Seriously, what is the solution?

    "He should fix it! Not cave!"

    And how does he do it without Congressional support?

    Crickets.

    Then... "He shouldn't cave!  He's supposed to listen to us!"

    Will that get government functioning again, since the Republicans still own the house and won't move?

    "They won't move anyway!"

    So what are you suggesting?  How does he get around the House altogether?

    Crickets.

    "He shouldn't cave!"

    The scene on November 6, midnight: Barack Obama holds up newspaper reading "Romney defeats Obama" as he heads to give his second term acceptance speech.

    by alkatt on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 03:33:22 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Point-by-point refutation (12+ / 0-)
      Because the criticisms of Obama... (0+ / 0-)

      ...ignores the REALITY of Republican obstructionism.

      No, that's wrong.  Practically all of the critics of Obama have pointed out the complete backwards of the Republican approach.  What they are against is the meme that Obama is somehow a leftist, or even a liberal or moderate, or in some eleventy-dimensional chess way "our friend."
      "He should fix it! Not cave!"

      And how does he do it without Congressional support?

      Crickets.

      This isn't some sort of practical problem wherein Obama, being of pure heart and Democratic Party mind, saves the world from Republican obstructionism.  It's an interrogation of what Obama really wants -- which turns out to be the sequester, the Grand Bargain, the Trans-Pacific Partnership, an expansion of the Bush/Cheney war on the world, and so on.  But you'd actually have to read the comments of Obama critics here at Kos to know that.
      Will that get government functioning again, since the Republicans still own the house and won't move?

      "They won't move anyway!"

      The Republicans do not control 2/3 of both houses of Congress, and are not united in everything.  There would be enough resistance in Congress to block practically everything they wanted to do, if the majority party cared enough to resist.  It's this last clause that's lacking.  If there was real Democratic Party resistance to Republican rule, and not (for instance) 3/4 of the Progressive Caucus going AWOL amidst a call to defend Social Security, Medicaid, and Medicare, you'd probably see a difference.
      So what are you suggesting?  How does he get around the House altogether?

      Crickets.

      "He shouldn't cave!"

      Once upon a time the Democratic Party actually controlled the House, and so ostensibly it wasn't something to be "gotten around."  The primary achievement of that Congress appears to have been a health insurance bill which does not rein in costs and which was largely the brainchild of the Heritage Foundation and of Mitt Romney's tenure as governor of Massachusetts.

      Someday the Democratic Party may actually control the House once again.  But it won't be important unless the public can actually bring itself to demand a politics of real solutions, i.e. a left-wing politics, and unless government can be made to enact this left-wing politics and not buy the lame excuses (e.g. "Republican obstructionism") our politicians proffer as their own excuses for selling out.  

      "There's nothing heroic about earning profit." -Odo, from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine

      by Cassiodorus on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 03:58:38 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

    •  Some of us have made specific criticisms... (19+ / 0-)

      ...very specific, from the beginning of President Obama's first term while simultaneously acknowledging the obstructionism, criticizing Congress, including Democratic enablers, and praising President Obama's good initiatives, of which there are many.

      Some of us are ourselves criticized these days for 20-20 hindsight and for not presenting alternatives when we made the criticisms from the beginning and offered those alternatives. The response to us then was, all too often, not crickets but the posting of the Photoshopped picture captioned: "Chill the fuck out! I've got this."

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 05:52:22 PM PST

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      •  MB, we are talking about something (8+ / 0-)

        other than specific criticisms, we are talking about an all out war against anyone who doesn't follow the groupthink that Obama is automatically the enemy and that he must be destroyed from within. That is the real problem.

        Hangnail? It is Obama's fault!
        Boehner is orange? It is Obama's fault!
        Obama uses Executive Order? He is taking over!
        Obama doesn't use Executive Order? He is secretly a Republican!

        Honestly, I have seen many different variants on this same theme almost every single day around here. There is a difference between holding Obama's feet to the fire and spit roasting him!

        Economic Left/Right: -8.25 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.54 Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons (or cats), for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

        by triciawyse on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 06:11:28 PM PST

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        •  To be perfectly honest, this is why (5+ / 0-)

          you are hemorraging community members as badly as you are. They are treated like crap while they are here by the bandwagon who jump and attack every single person who doesn't follow the group think with carte blanche and people can only take so much abuse before they look for another route.

          Economic Left/Right: -8.25 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.54 Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons (or cats), for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

          by triciawyse on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 06:29:34 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  All singing, all dancing pooties. (7+ / 0-)


            Hangnail? It is Obama's fault!
            Boehner is orange? It is Obama's fault!
            Strawman much?
          •  Oh, and you mean that group think that drove off.. (7+ / 0-)

            all the Democratic members of the Democratic Party in 08 and 12.

            Right?

            •  No, ek, I mean people who worked their asses (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              The Marti, ceriboo, aitchdee

              off to help build a damn community around here and did their damnedest to do what this site is SUPPOSED to be about, as per the FAQ. Ironically, many people seem to have lost sight of that.

              This is a Democratic blog, a partisan blog. One that recognizes that Democrats run from left to right on the ideological spectrum, and yet we're all still in this fight together. We happily embrace centrists like NDN's Simon Rosenberg and Howard Dean, conservatives like Martin Frost and Brad Carson, and liberals like John Kerry and Barack Obama. Liberal? Yeah, we're around here and we're proud. But it's not a liberal blog. It's a Democratic blog with one goal in mind: electoral victory. And since we haven't gotten any of that from the current crew, we're one more thing: a reform blog. The battle for the party is not an ideological battle. It's one between establishment and anti-establishment factions. And as I've said a million times, the status quo is untenable.

              Economic Left/Right: -8.25 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.54 Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons (or cats), for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

              by triciawyse on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 10:18:31 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I put that in the FAQ. How about this part? (11+ / 0-)
                And since we haven't gotten any of that from the current crew, we're one more thing: a reform blog. The battle for the party is not an ideological battle. It's one between establishment and anti-establishment factions. And as I've said a million times, the status quo is untenable.
                That bold facing is yours, it's not in the original document.

                Do you really think it's conductive to electoral victory to promote a neo-liberal austerity program and ignore the 90% of voters who oppose that?

                If so I invite you to look at Europe and the UK.

                Electoral victory?  That's a joke.  Otherwise you'd support programs that are actually, you know, popular and stop enabling Republicans by adopting their policies.

                In the mean time suck it up and stop building strawmen of your discontent with people who don't clap hard enough for Tinkerbell.

                •  YES, the boldface was MINE. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  aitchdee

                  I ADMIT THAT FULLHEARTEDLY & NEVER CLAIMED ANY DIFFERENT! And basically, either suck up the fact that DK is becoming almost as bad as RedState and shut up and follow the frustrati orders or be taken out? Is that what you are admitting to me?

                  Economic Left/Right: -8.25 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.54 Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons (or cats), for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                  by triciawyse on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 10:46:33 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Admitting? (7+ / 0-)

                    Who's being naive Kay?

                    You're the one claiming, now, that dK is no better than RedState.

                    Forgive me if I disagree.

                    And taking you out?  Are you implying I'm threatening you by responding to your public opinions?

                    You type what you want, but be prepared for criticism as well as adulation.

                    Otherwise I suggest a gentler hobby, like crochet.

                  •  as opposed to shut up and support the Dems in (6+ / 0-)

                    all they do no matter what or be taken out?

                    there are two sides to the coin tricia; yours is but one.

                    and i think what ek meant is that the highlighting in the quoted version distracts from the sentences that follow it, and the sentences that follow it are important distinctions having to do with our Democratic electeds.

                    The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it. ~George Orwell

                    by poligirl on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 10:53:45 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  LOL - you think you have me pegged? (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      aitchdee

                      Is Obama perfect?? NO! I will never say that he is; however insisting that he is the ONLY problem in DC is nothing more than prettying up the pig that the GOP is trying to sell. Personally, I think it is pretty GD bad that on any given day, on a blog that is supposed to be for DEMOCRATS reads like something off of Faux News and is ALL about how evil and horrible our President is!

                      Economic Left/Right: -8.25 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.54 Do not meddle in the affairs of dragons (or cats), for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

                      by triciawyse on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 11:10:16 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  i'm not the one doing the pegging, i'm just... (9+ / 0-)

                        repeating your words. for instance, right here you say:

                        Is Obama perfect?? NO! I will never say that he is; however insisting that he is the ONLY problem in DC is nothing more than prettying up the pig that the GOP is trying to sell.
                        please show me where myself, ek, or any of the critics i support here at DKos are claiming that he is the only problem in DC.

                        now, honestly, who's doing the pegging here. same goes with the above comments.

                        and the critics i support here write critiques on some of the policies supported, backed, and sometimes put forth by the Obama administration. they don't get into personal smear, but critiquing how Obama leads on a matter of policy is not personal - it has to do with how he acts in official capacity. and those policies affect a lot of folks personally, so yeah, we've every right to critique his administration. even moreso for those of us who voted for him.

                        insisting that no one criticize like priceman, bob swern, Cassiodorus, the ACM folks, david mizner, joanneleon, joe shikspack, et al do, is suggesting that what would be preferable was a place where varying leftie opinions were not allowed, which is actually authoritarian like RedState, and not the other way around.

                        i would suggest that the reason some folks are possibly more upset about the criticism now may have something more to do with my sig line, and not the actual criticism.

                        The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those that speak it. ~George Orwell

                        by poligirl on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 11:24:44 AM PST

                        [ Parent ]

        •  Sounds like another Houle Hoop. (5+ / 0-)
          MB, we are talking about something (7+ / 0-)
          other than specific criticisms, we are talking about an all out war against anyone who doesn't follow the groupthink that Obama is automatically the enemy and that he must be destroyed from within. That is the real problem.
          Will it move again when somebody else asks if their criticisms are legit?

          Just sayin'.

          ePluribus Media
          Collaboration is contagious!

          by m16eib on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 01:02:24 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Ok. Could I ask you a question? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kat68, NY brit expat

        I found the article. I understand where Dean Baker is coming from. The economy needs stimulus, and yes spending reductions are just more drag.

        But haven't Democrats taken up deficit reduction ever since Reagan?  This is nothing new. The last 30 years conservatives convinced many people the federal budget was like a family budget. That was simple and easy for them to grasp - even though false.

        Isn't the Democrats partly responding to the public's erroneous perception?  

        We need to find a way to explain Keynesian economics in a way that's just as simple and easy to understand. If the people right to convince people of a false view, shouldn't we be able to change their perception?

        Wouldn't the Democratic Party then follow public view?

        Please know that I understand your point. Reducing the deficit is not going to solve our economic ills anymore than an underweight person would benefit from going on a diet.

        I'm just saying that sometimes political parties react to public perception.

        Also, today's GOP is whacky beyond anything seen in over a century if not ever. I know you realize that.

        As a member of Courtesy Kos, I am dedicated to civility and respect for all kossacks, regardless of their opinions, affiliations, or cliques.

        by joedemocrat on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 06:32:16 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  Without a doubt, Republicans are worse... (12+ / 0-)

          ...than they've been in lifetime, and I lived through Nixon and Reagan, both of whom I thought would be hard to top. They extremists and obstructionists. Sadly, there is a cohort of Democrats who enable them by either agreeing with them (the Joe Liebermans and Blanche Lincolns and Ben Nelsons) or by not fighting hard enough against them (Harry Reid much of the time, and quite a few others).

          My view is now and has long been that we need to build good Democratic leaders from the bottom up, city councils and state legislatures, whose campaigns can do much at the local level to persuade voters to understand the snare and delusion of lower taxes for the rich and chopping the deficit in the midst of economic crisis. Electoral activism that only focuses on the presidency, Senate and House, is not enough. States (and cities) are innovating many good policies, and those lawmakers who push those policies should be the ones we, bottom up, fight to elect to higher office. That's a long-term project, and much of the work is tedious and frustrating, but it must be done.

          Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Wed Mar 06, 2013 at 07:30:55 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  And eleventh dimensional chess. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        poligirl

        that was another favorite.

        If not HRed and banned like many of my peeps.

        "Til you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules" John Lennon - Working Class Hero

        by Horace Boothroyd III on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 05:32:51 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

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