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View Diary: Negotiations over universal background checks collapse. Senate committee marking up four gun bills (207 comments)

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    •  I don't get it, there already IS recording keeping (13+ / 0-)

      ... it seems 60% of gun sales have a record kept for 20 years. If the NRA and other gun rights supporters can live with and accept that - why not 100%? As if confiscating 60% of guns would not be a tyrannical act?

      The whole records, registry, confiscation BS is just that - BS rhetoric meant to only weaken law enforcement and public safety. And why?

        •  Exactly, they "launder" legal guns into illegal (3+ / 0-)

          ones by having them sold by unscrupulous "private" dealers (or family members).  This way they can keep the supply of illegal guns flowing - something critical to criminals, the drug cartels, and the NRA as all of those benefit from those illegal guns (in the case of the NRA, it is just more demand for the "product" that they peddle).

          Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

          by DefendOurConstitution on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 09:57:52 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  Who is "they"? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            OMwordTHRUdaFOG

            A pretty broad brush against FFL's?

            •  Gun manufacturers and dealers, FFLs, with the (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Glen The Plumber

              assistance/blessing of the NRA.

              Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

              by DefendOurConstitution on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 10:19:15 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  Sure some are worse than others, but the regu- (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Glen The Plumber, nosleep4u

              lations have no teeth and the BATFE not real way to enforce so that the worst offenders know they can get away with it.

              Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

              by DefendOurConstitution on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 10:21:48 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  I think majority of the 65,000 FFLs are (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              JesseCW, Texas Lefty, OMwordTHRUdaFOG

              legal operators - and frankly, I don't see how they can compete against illegal and unethical "private party sales" dealers at gun shows.

              Closing the gun show loophole should help FFLs to compete on a a level playing field.

              If UBCs become law, I wonder if there might develop a new level of FFL, one who does not keep firearms inventory, but you can run background checks. Sort of like a notory.

              A FFL for background checks only, could be subject to the same record keeping, inspection/ audit requirements as other FFLs but wouldn't have the cost of keeping firearm/ammo inventory.

              "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

              by LilithGardener on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 12:53:35 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  "compete" how? (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                noway2

                The licenced dealers do not, by and large, make a practice of intentionally selling to criminals and bootleggers, so the two markets really don't collide much.

                Your hate-mail will be graded.

                by PavePusher on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 08:43:23 PM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Compete for legal buyers who can pass a (0+ / 0-)

                  background check.

                  Currently, under the private party sales exemption, dealers have to compete with "unlicensed dealers" who have none of the expenses that an FFL has to cover as part of their overhead.

                  A significant fraction of the private party sales at gun shows are in effect unlicensed dealers, and a significant fraction aren't doing background checks even when they know the buyer is a straw buyer, or that the buyer can't pass a background check.

                  "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                  by LilithGardener on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 08:51:23 PM PST

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                  •  Would love to see some verifiable stats.... (0+ / 0-)

                    that support your assertions.

                    And if they are in a state that doesn't require a check, they can't actually do a check.  So that insinuation is quite false.

                    Your hate-mail will be graded.

                    by PavePusher on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 09:57:30 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  You can search my comments if you like (0+ / 0-)

                      I don't have time today to get into it right now.

                      If you have contrary stats and post them, I'll take a look.

                      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                      by LilithGardener on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 10:35:12 AM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                •  NY state is doing this - to hold gun show (0+ / 0-)

                  operators accountable for reasonable provisions that ensure lawful practices at their venues.

                  The Model Procedures require operators to do the following, and will be in place at the January 26-27th gun show at the Empire State Plaza Convention Center:

                  ·       Post conspicuous signs throughout the shows, and give written notice to all dealers that New York State law requires that a National Instant Criminal Background Check be completed before the transfer of a gun at a gun show, including on the grounds of the show.

                  ·       Require that all guns brought into the gun show by private sellers are tagged so that, upon exiting, the operator can determine if the guns were sold and a NICS was performed.

                  ·       Provide access to a dealer who is authorized to conduct a NICS at cost.

                  ·       Limit the number of access doors at the show so that sellers and buyers have to enter and exit through an area where the NICS procedures can be monitored.

                  ·       Use reasonable means to prevent illegal gun sales outside of the building, including the parking lot.

                  ·       Alert local law enforcement that a show will be held in their area, request periodic patrols in the parking lots to deter illegal sales, and call them if illegal sales are observed or suspected.

                  "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                  by LilithGardener on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 08:55:58 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

          •  Launder is a process that gets things clean (2+ / 0-)

            I think using launder the way you do is confusing to a lot of people.

            Launder would be a way to make a dirty gun clean.

            "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

            by LilithGardener on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 10:06:58 AM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  Hence my " markjs around launder, it is reverse (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Glen The Plumber

              and also perverse.

              Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

              by DefendOurConstitution on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 10:17:59 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

            •  A win-win for the NRA, separate themselves from (0+ / 0-)

              "illegal" guns (on which they blame all the shootings/injuries/deaths) while increasing demand for their legal product (every gun "laundered" into an illegal gun decreases FFL inventory thus increasing demand).

              Don't forget that every illegal gun started its life as a happy legal gun.

              Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

              by DefendOurConstitution on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 10:24:14 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  I know what you mean and I agree with the (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                DefendOurConstitution

                message that every gun started off in the hands of a legal owner, I just don't think that particular phrase helps you make your argument.

                YMMV

                "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                by LilithGardener on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 10:34:37 AM PST

                [ Parent ]

                •  Thanks, I guess we need to find a good term for (0+ / 0-)

                  how they turn a legal gun into an illegal one so that they can sell it in the illegal markets.

                  Then they came for me - and by that time there was nobody left to speak up.

                  by DefendOurConstitution on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 10:38:38 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'll assert that an illegal gun is any gun that (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    DefendOurConstitution

                    was purchased or used illegally.

                    So that includes all gunshots, and violent crimes when a gun was used even if the gun wasn't discharged.

                    The legal gun makes its transition to an illegal gun
                    1) the first time it is sold to a prohibited person,
                    2) the first time it is sold by someone who is required to perform a background check, but didn't bother to perform a background check,
                    3) the first time it is the hands of an unsupervised minor child (children can't own guns)
                    4) the first time a gun is sold to a pair of shoppers where one person fills out the paperwork while the other handles and selects which firearm to buy.
                    5) the first time a gun is not reported lost or stolen within 48 hours.

                    etc.

                    It is not legal for a child to own a gun, therefore when a minor child shoots someone it was with an illegal gun that was left unsecured by a previously law abiding gun owner.

                    "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                    by LilithGardener on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 11:10:36 AM PST

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Here's a perfect example of how you focus.... (0+ / 0-)

                    on the wrong thing.

                    There is nothing illegal about the gun.  

                    The illegality would be on the part of the people making unlawful transactions.

                    Your hate-mail will be graded.

                    by PavePusher on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 08:45:33 PM PST

                    [ Parent ]

        •  ''customers they need, but probably shouldn't'' (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PavePusher

          you're implying 40% of gun sales are to crazed criminals... get a clue, buy a vowel

          Who is mighty ? One who turns an enemy into a friend !

          by OMwordTHRUdaFOG on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 07:46:20 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

      •  Tiahrt Amendment (5+ / 0-)

        http://en.wikipedia.org/...

        Tiahrt Amendment

        Tiahrt is the author of the Tiahrt Amendment which prohibits the National Tracing Center of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF) from releasing information from its firearms trace database to anyone other than a law enforcement agency or prosecutor in connection with a criminal investigation.[5] This precludes gun trace data from being used in academic research of gun use in crime.[5] Additionally, the law blocks any data legally released from being inadmissible in civil lawsuits against gun sellers or manufacturers.[5] Some groups, including the Mayors Against Illegal Guns Coalition, believe that having further access to the ATF database would help municipal police departments track down sellers of illegal guns and curb crime. These groups are trying to undo the Tiahrt Amendment.[6] Numerous police organizations oppose the Tiahrt Amendment, such as the Major Cities Chiefs Association (MCCA) and the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP).[7] Conversely, the Tiahrt Amendment is supported by the National Rifle Association, [8] and the Fraternal Order of Police (although it allows municipal police departments only limited access to ATF trace data in any criminal investigation). The National Rifle Association says that undoing the Tiahrt Amendment would lead to a rash of lawsuits against gun dealers.[6]

        I want 1 less Tiny Coffin, Why Don't You? Support The President's Gun Violence Plan.

        by JML9999 on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 10:01:02 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

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