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View Diary: Negotiations over universal background checks collapse. Senate committee marking up four gun bills (207 comments)

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  •  There's time to catch up (0+ / 0-)

    to those who have been wrestling with the challenge of how to balance the rights of gun owners/hunters/sportsman to choose their weapon of self defense with the rights of everyone around them to live their lives free from unwarranted risk and fear.

    No one blames noobie's who only started paying attention in the last few years. But you have to do your own homework to catch up.

    If you persist to repeat tired talking points that have been posted over and over and over again, and I see them, I will be calling BINGO.

    "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

    by LilithGardener on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 12:00:24 PM PST

    [ Parent ]

    •  Hey, I am not one of the ones wanting (0+ / 0-)

      new regulation.  If your going to be rude about it, a la, "tired talking points", the serious discussion can stop once again and we can go back to the BINGO bullshit.  I really don't care.  That to me is still a win.

      I happen to be a leftist-libertarian who lives in a red state in the south east and really don't give a damn about NY or want anything to do with NY proposed laws.  My representatives, save one whose seat is in significant jeopardy over the gun rights issue are all highly pro-2A and want to enact legislation that would give NY'ers heartburn.  I for one would be very happy with things like forced national carry reciprocity, which your state steadfastly opposes.

      I'm willing to talk and I am willing to work towards equitable solutions, but the Left is not in the dominant position on this issue.  If it were, we wouldn't be discussing this diary.  

      •  And perhaps that is the difference between (3+ / 0-)

        a liberal and a libertarian.

        I, for one, care deeply that people who live in rural counties, such as on a farm, or a ranch, or in a community where firearm competency is high preserve their rights to keep and bear arms on their private property, preserve their rights to decide at what age they should teach their children how to properly handle, use, and care for a firearm.

        I also care deeply about the minority, poor, and stupid people we are currently feeding into the prison system. Our overly lax laws set millions of people up to fail. Even if they don't go to prison, they go to the hospital, they lose the primary wage earner, the kids lose there parents, kids accidentally shoot themselves or one of their siblings or friends. Someone just lost a babysitter they needed to be able to work part time. Someone else just lost a key employee. Witnesses may be haunted for the rest of their lives. The survivors bear the toll for the rest of their lives.

        So I, for one, care very much what happens in other states that have different utility/risk of injury for firearm ownership or use.

        Some people, perhaps not you, don't give a fuck about NYC, because then you might have to admit that we have solved some of these problems a long time ago. We certainly have other problems, but gun violence is pretty far down the list.

        New York state isn't anti-gun. New rules in NY state require gun show operators to establish an in/out inventory check system. Gun show operators will no longer be able to use a "don't ask/don't tell" policy to skim profits while looking the other way when their venues are bazaars for illegal and unethical gun transfers. Honestly, I don't know FFLs can even compete against so many unethical dealers.

        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

        by LilithGardener on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 12:46:44 PM PST

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        •  Sounds like an apt comparison of a liberal (0+ / 0-)

          and standard libertarian.  This also goes back to whether or not guns are an authoritarian / libertarian issue or a left - right issue.  There is a term I saw used at the LGC, which I referenced in another thread, Small Govt Liberal, which is as I think of it a fitting description of my views, which are  a mixture of liberal an libertarian.  For example, I believe that the fed govt should be regulating things like international trade, and interstate commerce especially when externalities are involved, but staying out a lot of the minutia that has become nothing but a quagmire.  As another example to clarify, I would say that the federal govt should be involved in setting standards for education, but not funding bloated Deptartments dealing with education funding.  Similarly I believe that the govt can provide some services and functions, especially infrastructure heavy ones at a lower cost and better than a private company ever could or would.

          So in essence, you could say I believe in the freedoms and services that govt can and does offer (leftist), but don't want them acting as a nanny either (libertarian).

          •  Firearms laws aren't an either/or issue, no (1+ / 0-)
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            matter which axis you want to choose.

            Firearms law / public safety have hundreds of confounding variables.

            fed govt should be regulating things like international trade, and interstate commerce especially when externalities are involved, but staying out a lot of the minutia that has become nothing but a quagmire.
            I don't think you mean to keep asserting that injury and death by gunshot are minutia, do you? It comes across that way.

            And your assertion above is in direct opposition to your previously stated desire for a federal law requiring permit reciprocity by all states.

            "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

            by LilithGardener on Thu Mar 07, 2013 at 01:27:04 PM PST

            [ Parent ]

            •  No I'm not saying injury and gun death are minutia (0+ / 0-)

              As an example of what I mean by minutia, take for example, the TSA.  Could DHS establish standards that need to be followed without having a department of thousands of direct federal employees?

              And your assertion above is in direct opposition to your previously stated desire for a federal law requiring permit reciprocity by all states.
              No more than saying that all states have to recognize marriage or drivers license.  The states still establish the licensing, or allow interstate phone calls, but the federal rules say that all states have to cooperate with each others as a unified nation.  

              This is part of why I suggested and support a state based permit system rather than a federal point of sale background check.

              The difference is in the federal govt establishing interstate rules without a bureaucracy directly implementing it across the nation.  

              Another example would be marijuana laws.  If MJ is going to be illegal federally, the limit of the federal involvement should be in it crossing state lines via regulation of interstate commerce.  If a state wants to make recreational MJ use legal within it's borders, the fed should have no say in the matter.

            •  Responding to this part seperately (0+ / 0-)
              Firearms laws aren't an either/or issue, no matter which axis you want to choose.  Firearms law / public safety have hundreds of confounding variables
              That they do.  It is also what makes having a one size fits all federal standard difficult to impossible, and perhaps why achieving consensus on it is so difficult.

              I read a discussion once using NYC as an example.  Part of the justification for the restrictions on carry was the urban density.  Federal laws and restrictions designed around that location aren't necessarily justifiable elsewhere.  There are also differences in culture and beliefs across various regions of the country.   We should account for these things.

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