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View Diary: Dabbling in terror and targeting Americans a bad career move under this President... (99 comments)

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  •  What about the victims due process? (2+ / 0-)
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    doc2, SilentBrook

    Is he not entitled to due process before you shoot him? Maybe he was just drunk, or lost, when he wandered onto your property at 3 in the morning. Is it your right to make that call or the authorities?

    Quakers as terrorists in 2013? Talk about a straw man...

    •  One party's terrorist is another party's freedom (2+ / 0-)
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      Kingsmeg, marina


      A terrorist watch list compiled by the FBI has apparently swelled to include more than half a million names. Privacy and civil liberties advocates say the list is growing uncontrollably, threatening its usefulness in the war on terror. The bureau says the number of names on its terrorist watch list is classified.
      This week, the Federal Bureau of Investigation announced that it had added a 31-year-old American animal rights activist named Daniel Andreas San Diego to its list of “Most Wanted Terrorists.” Describing Mr. San Diego as a “domestic terrorist,” the F.B.I. warned that he “should be considered armed and dangerous.” According to the bureau, Mr. San Diego is wanted for the role he may have played in the bombings of two San Francisco-area office buildings.
      (emphasis mine)

      And just to make you a bit uncomfortable:

      In addition to Code Pink, the bill could also designate the Progressive Democrats of America as a terrorist organization, as they have openly supported the Hamas flotilla. Members of the PDA include:

      Rep. John Conyers (D-GA)
      Rep. Raul Grijalva (D-AZ)
      Rep. Maxine Waters (D-CA)
      Rep. Lynn Woolsey (D-CA)
      Thom Hartmann (radio and television host)
      Tom Hayden (who advocates the “peaceful” disappearance of the white race)
      Bill Fletcher (member of the Democratic Socialists of America)

      Makes you feel all warm and fuzzy about the prospects of Rand Paul 2016, doesn't it.

      Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

      by k9disc on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 03:55:22 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Big difference between being on a watch list... (3+ / 0-)
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        k9disc, doc2, SilentBrook

        ...and being the target of a Hellfire missile. You are actually making my point for me--all those names cited are still alive, aren't they? No Hellfire missile assassinations among them, is there?

        The administration standard to trigger a drone attack against an American citizen on American soil is much, much higher than anything you cited above. In fact, nobody has met that standard yet.

        Like I said, one can imagine all sorts of threats with paranoid hypotheticals....

      •  "Hamas flotilla"? (0+ / 0-)

        So that's what the game was about. Get a Turkish boat with giant Turkish flags join an international relief effort to bring goods to the Palestinians. Fill up the boat with fanatic looking people although most Turks are not fanatics. Get IDF to attack the Turkish boat commando style with a "kill-list" and then when the American liberals joined by the international community cry foul, designate them as "terrorists supporting the 'Hamas' boat."

        Wow! Amazing...I can't believe the level of monstrosity built in these plots.

        Evil does exist.

        "Corruptio Optimi Pessima" (Corruption of the best is the worst)

        by zenox on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 05:10:16 AM PST

        [ Parent ]

      •  If the guy has been indicted for (1+ / 0-)
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        terrorism and is on the lam from the FBI, then you are right that he has only been accused and thus may be not guilty. But if he is unwilling to turn himself in to stand trial, we are supposed to perpetually give him the innocent-til-proven-guilty status? IMO, if he knows he is wanted for terrorism, but it is a case of mistaken identity, he must turn himself in. If he doesn't, the police are (of course) going to consider him an ongoing threat. You are not being logical.

    •  I don't think "due process" means what you think (1+ / 0-)
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      it means.

      'Due process' is the legal requirement that the state must respect all of the legal rights that are owed to a person. Due process balances the power of law of the land and protects the individual person from it. When a government harms a person without following the exact course of the law, this constitutes a due-process violation, which offends against the rule of law.
      What is your game here? You can't be that ignorant - conflating the actions of an individual citizen and the State...

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      by k9disc on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 04:00:39 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  Simply pointing out how your outrage... (1+ / 0-)
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        SilentBrook the government ignoring due process to protect American citizens fades away when you yourself assert your right to ignore due process to protect yourself. It's the inconsistency that weakens your argument.

        What game are YOU playing? If you aren't involved in terror operations, you have nothing to fear. This crap about the President sitting around the WH, passing the time by picking out US citizens to bomb at random at the corner diner, sounds like something...well, it sure sounds like something Rand Paul or Sarah Palin would say!

        Gip a grip, buddy--we're going to be all right...

        •  Citizens don't get to practice due process. (1+ / 0-)
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          The courts and the states do.

          Like I said, that phrase doesn't mean what you think it means.

          You are mistaking due process for right or wrong, and that's kind of my beef with your logic. You just don't get it.  

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          by k9disc on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 04:35:15 AM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  You are claiming a right to shoot that intruder... (2+ / 0-)
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            doc2, SilentBrook

            ...on your property if I understand you correctly. But I don't see how that is consistent with your stated beliefs that all American citizens deserve due process through the courts. Doesn't he get a day in court before you execute him?

            What right are you claiming to shoot him down in cold blood without a trial? Please don't say self-defense.

            I'll agree individuals have rights not necessarily given the state, but the government does have full responsibility to raise armies and conduct warfare for the common defense. And the constitution specifically makes the President the commander in chief of those armies, which gives him latitude to conduct military operations within the constitution.

            The administration is asserting that the drone policy falls within it's constitutional authority. I suspect the Supreme Court will get the final say here and I believe they'll uphold the President 9-0 when that day comes...  

            •  No, I am saying that me shooting a person on my (1+ / 0-)
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              property is not robbing him or her of his or her right to due process.

              It may be depriving them of their life and liberty, but it has no bearing on due process whatsoever.

              Due Process is a responsibility of the State. It's the 5th amendment. Individuals are not responsible for the bill of rights.

              I don't have to let you talk. I don't have to let you own a gun. I don't have to protect your privacy.

              Due process is for an accused, not a victim.

              And you are the one that said I was shooting a guy outside my property, I was just rolling with it.

              There is also a huge difference between me defending myself and shooting a guy loitering on my property.

              That's kind of the point. The State can not shoot a loiterer (or a suspected terrorist) and claim that they were halting a crime that was going to be committed.

              Of course the State has assumed that right and here you are defending it, but that doesn't mean it's proper, moral or constitutional. Remember that Plessy v Furgeson was 'constitutional' for 60 years, until it wasn't.

              It's just a bit more complex than killing bad guys...

              Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

              by k9disc on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 05:09:51 AM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Would you please answer the question. (1+ / 0-)
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                What about people who choose not to avail themselves of their right to due process? They refuse to face trial, go underground, and (we suspect) continue to plan and conduct crimes. What are we supposed to do then?

                •  Assuming they have already committed crimes, (1+ / 0-)
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                  You capture them and bring them to trial, respecting due process and all that.*

                  You know, like we were taught in grade school -- equal justice for all, innocent until proven guilty, all that stuff. That's what makes used to make us such a great country.

                  * If they can't be captured, then at least we could arm the damn drones with sleeping gas or something non-lethal. Yeah, I know it's easier to just kill whoever's there and of course It Can't Happen Here.

                •  Not that you really deserve an answer, as you (0+ / 0-)

                  and Bluestrike have been entirely obtuse as to my point and continue to try to beat your ideas into me - it's not necessary. I understand your point. I disagree with it, in it's entirety.

                  I would use like force on someone who was actively doing me harm.

                  I would not use force on someone who had done me harm or who might do me harm, or whom I believe would do me harm. If I did, I would not expect a get out of jail free card based on a self defense defense. If I were to act violently, I would expect that there would be repercussions and would budget them into my decision to act. It would be a big decision - one not taken lightly because of those repercussions.

                  That's what should happen in the "24", ticking time bomb scenario you guys keep talking about.

                  If Obama or President Bush were to shoot a hellfire missile at a bad guy in the US, to thwart a heinous crime, he should expect that there will be fallout. That he should have to fess up and come clean and plead his case to the People and to the judicial system, is important to ensuring that it doesn't happen frivolously.

                  As is, or as I understand the NDAA and current 'war footing' Unitary Executive power - no court sanction, no access to details due to National Security and Executive Privilege - it will be used not only to protect Americans from harm in a terrorist attack, but it will also be used to protect the Establishment.

                  Democracy - 1 person 1 vote. Free Markets - More dollars more power.

                  by k9disc on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 09:36:04 AM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Well, I guess it is a good thing you (0+ / 0-)

                    are not responsible for our safety. A terrorist who has killed in the past and may be planning to kill again is not enough of a target for you? He must be actively killing at the very moment he is targeted? Again, thank you for not being my president. And my children thank you as well.

            •  In any civilized country, (2+ / 0-)
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              marina, k9disc

              including my own (Canada), shooting down a person simply for being on your property is called 'murder'.  Period.  If that person is breaking down the door of your house, after you have ordered them to leave and called the cops, you might enter 'self-defense' territory but you will still have a lot of explaining to do if you actually shoot them before they have broken down the door and pointed a weapon at you.

              Coincidentally, most civilized people think the current US administration's drone strikes are murder, plain and simple. Someone piloting a remote killing machine looks at some unknown house from thousands of feet in the air, and because they see 3 unknown people enter the house they decide there's a possibility they're 'terrorists' so they launch a Hellfire missile at the house, without knowing or caring who's inside or why?  Yes, that's murder.  When this is done systematically to terrorize an entire population (Afghanistan, 'Waziristan'...), it is more than 'murder', it's 'terrorism'.

              You really think the US gov't should have the power to begin this at home?  Not the right, there is no 'right' to do this even in Afghanistan where there is arguably a war, there is merely the power to do it and have no one be able to stop it or prosecute it as a crime.

              190 milliseconds....

              by Kingsmeg on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 06:19:45 AM PST

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        •  Basically they are saying that (1+ / 0-)
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          everyone is entitled to due process, even if they are hiding out from due process. We must patiently wait until we have an opportunity to safely arrest the person. That is our only avenue. Aren't progressives supposed to care for the weakest and most vulnerable over the interests of the violent bully?

      •  That is silly. Due process is (1+ / 0-)
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        available to all. But we are talking about people who, by evading detection when they know that they are wanted, are actively running from the law. They are deciding NOT to take advantage of their right to due process. So you say that we should hold off on punishing them since we can't prove them guilty since they won't allow us to. That is a Catch-22 if there ever was one. Why though you'd side with the wanted terrorist on the run is surprising though since it is you (and I) that he wants to kill. I say that if a person is wanted or indicted for violent crimes, and some time passes and they do not turn themselves in, that their due process rights are put on hold in favor of protecting society. To me, that is a commonsense progressive position to take.

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