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View Diary: Droning Americans on US Soil: Why Holder's "No" is Not Reassuring (156 comments)

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  •  really? (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    aliasalias, corvo

    So a police officer can shoot you in the back if he thinks you're a felon? Merely running from the cops is punishable by death?

    People might run from the police for all sorts of reasons. They might not speak English and misunderstand. They might be mentally handicapped or under the influence of drugs or alcohol. They might just be confused or not that bright.

    So those things are enough to get you killed?

    How broad is this power? Do they have to have a warrant for your arrest before they can do this? Or is it enough that the police think you look suspicious, even if they didn't actually see you do anything?

    I am aware of cases where police fatally shot people who were reaching for cell phones, claiming they thought the suspect was reaching for a gun. The LAPD shot up an entire truck and nearly killed two women trying to get Christopher Dorner. Were they "fleeing felons," too?

    I am just trying to understand the scope of the police power here.

    "In America, the law is king." --Thomas Paine

    by limpidglass on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 10:04:41 AM PST

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    •  How long have you been in our country? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Brown Thrasher, kefauver

      You may want to read more local newspapers.

      Sorry to be snarky, but you should have researched this before making your assertion.  Yeah, you bet, fleeing felons do get shot.  Everything you say in your second paragraph is true -- and nevertheless, it does happen.

      Plaintiffs' Employment Law Attorney (harassment, discrimination, retaliation, whistleblowing, wage & hour, &c.) in North Orange County, CA.

      "I love this goddamn country, and we're going to take it back."
      -- Saul Alinsky

      by Seneca Doane on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 10:24:30 AM PST

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      •  unlike yourself, I'm not a lawyer (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Seneca Doane, aliasalias, corvo

        so I don't know all the ins and outs of the use of force.

        It does not reassure me, however, to learn that if I happen to be jogging past a murder scene with my iPod on full volume, I could be killed by a policeman who thinks I'm a fleeing felon, and he could claim, in the eyes of the law, to be fully justified on so doing.

        To me what you're saying is not an argument that the administration's killing program is merely a logical extension of already existing police authorities. It's an argument that we need to seriously review the scope of police authority to use lethal force and introduce much more oversight into the process.

        And it's much easier to control police abuses than it is to control presidential abuses.

        Police officers can be removed for abuse of their authority. There is no method to remove a sitting president short of impeachment. That automatically makes it much more difficult to rein in a rogue president. Impeachment has only happened twice in American history and it failed both times. Clearly it is not a satisfactory method of ensuring the president does not abuse his power.

        "In America, the law is king." --Thomas Paine

        by limpidglass on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 10:59:31 AM PST

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      •  I was was just reading about Ruby Ridge incident (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        corvo
        The Ruby Ridge Rules of Engagement (ROE) had been drawn up on the basis of reports from USMS and FBI headquarters, bolstered by unconfirmed news media accounts accepted by HQ, that exaggerated the threat posed by the Weavers.

        1.    If any adult male is observed with a weapon prior to the announcement, deadly force can and should be employed, if the shot can be taken without endangering any children.
        2.    If any adult in the compound is observed with a weapon after the surrender announcement is made, and is not attempting to surrender, deadly force can and should be employed to neutralize the individual.
        3.    If compromised by any animal, particularly the dogs, that animal should be eliminated.
        4.   Any subjects other than Randall Weaver, Vicki Weaver, Kevin Harris, presenting threats of death or grievous bodily harm, the FBI rules of deadly force are in effect. Deadly force can be utilized to prevent the death or grievous bodily injury to oneself or that of another.

        Running away was not considered a "threat to others".

        But I have three other concerns that trouble me more:
        1.  Drone strikes are conducted in secrecy, by the CIA.  You will never hear from a defense lawyer following a CIA assassination (drone strike or other).  Unlike Ruby Ridge, there likely will be no Senate investigations -- or if there are, they will go nowhere because of CIA secrecy.
        2.  Relying on CIA threat assessments: The CIA let itself be used to justify a multi-trillion dollar war.  The stakes couldn't have been higher.  Does anyone trust the CIA to not make mistakes, to not let itself be used?
        3.  There is no fundamental difference between a drone, .50 caliber rifle or poison tipped cane.  Eric Holder has claimed the Administration may use the CIA to kill any American citizen anywhere as long as they are an "imminent threat".  And I guarantee you do not think "imminent threat" means what the Administration thinks it means.

        Even Democrats can be asses. Look at Rahm Emanuel.

        by Helpless on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 05:19:49 PM PST

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      •  just happened here in the northern california area (0+ / 0-)

        several times in the last week - including the passenger of a car driven into a patrol car by someone who fled.  the passenger ended up dead - the driver was caught, i think...

        the police are a bit edgy here after two santa cruz officers were ambushed and killed going to interview someone regarding a misdemeanor charge of sexual battery - the guy killed both officers without warning - then had a running gun battle with the police until he killed himself.

        the stolen car driver who was shot and killed in san jose? was on his third strike - he rammed multiple police cars before crashing into a pole? and was shot trying to flee.

        we live in crazy times - but we are not in an "official" war on domestic turf - where the drones are being used, we are at war (like it or not, and i don't like it one bit, just for the record...)

        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

        by edrie on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 08:14:45 PM PST

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    •  This surprises you (1+ / 0-)
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      corvo

      ...in a country where people are still thrown in jail for "driving while black"?

      Time once again to fight cyber-spying! Defeat CISPA!

      by Brown Thrasher on Fri Mar 08, 2013 at 11:15:46 AM PST

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