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View Diary: He's Not Even Pretending Anymore (209 comments)

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  •  Where's your evidence of this? (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Don midwest
    cheney was able to get bush to do pretty much anything he wanted, and his word was at times absolute.
    This could very well be true. It'd be nice to have evidence.
    •  i was (10+ / 0-)

      a conscious being.

      The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

      by Laurence Lewis on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 11:45:03 AM PST

      [ Parent ]

      •  So your evidence is your conscious thought? (0+ / 0-)

        You're a solipsist?

        Seriously. What evidence do you have to support this claim? I'm curious.

        •  Why are you being so combative? (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Dirtandiron, CanyonWren, Nulwee

          "We the People of the United States...." -U.S. Constitution

          by elwior on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 12:25:30 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

          •  I'm genuinely curious about what evidence (0+ / 0-)

            led him to conclude that Cheney imposed his will on Bush for his entire first term. I enjoy hearing stories of palace intrigue.

            Why are you being so combative?
            Why would you ask me that? Am I not allowed to ask someone what led them to a given conclusion?
            •  Your comments don't read like curiosity (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              elwior, Dirtandiron, bluezen

              They read like defensive challenges. Whatever your intention, you are coming off as a Cheney apologist.

              "No one life is more important than another. No one voice is more valid than another. Each life is a treasure. Each voice deserves to be heard." Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse & Onomastic

              by Catte Nappe on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 12:46:56 PM PST

              [ Parent ]

              •  Are you out of your mind!? (0+ / 0-)

                I asked what evidence he has that Cheney imposed his will on Bush. I never questioned that Cheney was and is a bastard, there's plenty of evidence of that.

                But there's a difference between someone being a meglo-maniacal asshole and someone effectively imposing his will on the President of the United States. In the case of Cheney, it could very well be true, but I wanted to know what exactly led him to conclude that.

                Why on earth do you think I'm apologizing for Dick Cheney?! Are you not capable of making subtle distinctions or of thinking two things at once?

                •  Self examination (4+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  elwior, wishingwell, bluezen, Nada Lemming

                  I'm probably over endowed in the "subtle distinction" and "thinking two things at once" department.

                  You received at least two comments noting your combative tone. You asked why anyone would say that. I point out how you are coming across - whatever your intended meaning might be.

                  BTW - the definition of apologist does not involve apologizing - it involves defending. Nuanced difference there.

                  "No one life is more important than another. No one voice is more valid than another. Each life is a treasure. Each voice deserves to be heard." Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse & Onomastic

                  by Catte Nappe on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 01:44:02 PM PST

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  But I'm not apologizing for or defending Cheney. (0+ / 0-)

                    You're just flat out wrong about that, so why shouldn't I surmise that you might have a difficult time with nuance?

                    Learn to read carefully.

                    •  More self examination (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      elwior, kurt

                      Not for me. For you. I will take you at your word that you don't mean to apologize for, or defend, Cheney. However, I am at least the third person to specifically note that you are coming off as though you do mean to defend him.  Other responders to your comments are also reacting to that impression from you. Try reading some of that carefully and see if you can figure out how to express what you do mean more effectively.

                      "No one life is more important than another. No one voice is more valid than another. Each life is a treasure. Each voice deserves to be heard." Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse & Onomastic

                      by Catte Nappe on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 03:02:10 PM PST

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Like who? (0+ / 0-)
                        Other responders to your comments are also reacting to that impression from you. Try reading some of that carefully and see if you can figure out how to express what you do mean more effectively.
                        Who other than you? And what statement or statements did I make that could even be remotely interpreted that way? You're the one claiming that I'm being unclear, so back it up.
                        •  Aww, geez fou (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          elwior

                          You and I are clearly on the same political side over in the Fishgrease diary, but over here you are just stubbornly entrenched in not hearing what people are saying to you.   You can read the thread yourself. Search for "combative".  Two other commenters said you were coming off that way. You read at least one, because you directly asked why they said that; which is when I (apparently fruitlessly) tried to explain why. When three people independently, and without a lot of rancor, point out you are coming across as combative it might be a good thought to figure out why your intentions are being so widely misunderstood. A key aspect of communication is that the message is usually what people hear, regardless of what you actually meant.   I have now well exceeded how far I am usually willing to go to the right margin in comment threads so I think we will have to conclude there will be no meeting of the minds between us on this particular question; and just move on to fight the good fight together on those issues where we do agree.

                          "No one life is more important than another. No one voice is more valid than another. Each life is a treasure. Each voice deserves to be heard." Patriot Daily News Clearinghouse & Onomastic

                          by Catte Nappe on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 03:52:18 PM PST

                          [ Parent ]

    •  Wuh? Ya wants links? (13+ / 0-)

      The best source is probably Cheney's own book:  In My Time. Reviews that mined nuggets from it include: John Amato, Dan Schnur, Barton Gellman, and Dahlia Lithwick. And the "first draft of history" overflows with relevant material:

      Associated Press, 12/21/00:

      When the government handed over keys to the presidential transition offices, it was Cheney who gladly accepted them.

      Americans are seeing a lot more of Dick Cheney and his crooked smile than they ever did of past vice presidents-elect, even the notably visible Al Gore.

      Bush's appointment of O'Neill was only the latest sign of Cheney's extraordinary influence in the work-in-progress Bush administration. ...

      "It's unbelievable, really," said Paul Light, a Brookings Institution scholar who has written a book about the vice presidency. "Al Gore had an amazing vice presidency - he really upped the ante for future vice presidents. Dick Cheney has already broken every precedent that Al Gore set. He has extraordinary range of authority."

      Follow the money?  World Policy Institute, 10/04:
      A new report from the World Policy Institute tracks how this critical sector has exerted influence over administration policies, and how it is " voting with its dollars" in the 2004 campaign. ...

      Vice President Cheney’s former firm, Halliburton, which is involved in both Pentagon contracting and oil and gas ventures, has given 86% of its contributions to Republican candidates or committees and only 14% to Democratic candidates in the 2004 cycle. ...

      The biggest winner to date is Vice President Dick Cheney's former company, Halliburton. In one year, Halliburton went from being the Pentagon's number 37 contractor with just $500 million in contracts to lucky number 7 and $3.9 billion in defense contracts. And that's just the beginning, the company now has over $8 billion in contracts for Iraqi rebuilding and Pentagon logistics work in hand, and that figure could hit $18 billion if it exercises all of its options. Halliburton's work includes everything from rebuilding Iraq's oil infrastructure and building military bases to providing meals, doing laundry and maintaining military vehicles. Whenever and wherever the U.S. Army has to deploy on short notice, Halliburton is there.

      Time, 3/8/07:
      He may have come across as deferential to the President in public, but friends and advisers in the fall of 2002 described Cheney as nothing less than the engine of the Administration. "There's no way in which he is not driving the train on this," said one, referring to Cheney's role in pushing Bush and the Administration inexorably toward an invasion of Iraq. "Analysis, advocacy — it's all done by Cheney or his protégés or his former mentor [Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld]. It's about context. It's reflective not so much of Cheney's direct influence on the President as it is of his influence on — his dominance of — the decision-making process. It's about providing the facts and analysis to the decision maker that the decision maker needs. Bush is making the decision, but the Veep is directing the process toward the decision that he thinks is the right one." In other words, Cheney had so rigged the process that important decisions were foregone conclusions, ones that had been reached by the Vice President well in advance.
      Washington Post, 6/24/07:
      And he has found a ready patron in George W. Bush for edge-of-the-envelope views on executive supremacy that previous presidents did not assert.

      Over the past six years, Cheney has shaped his times as no vice president has before. ...

      Waxing or waning, Cheney holds his purchase on an unrivaled portfolio across the executive branch. Bush works most naturally, close observers said, at the level of broad objectives, broadly declared. Cheney, they said, inhabits an operational world in which means are matched with ends and some of the most important choices are made. When particulars rise to presidential notice, Cheney often steers the preparation of options and sits with Bush, in side-by-side wing chairs, as he is briefed.

      USA Today, 10/16/07:
      For the past six years, Michael Kirk has produced 10 Frontlines for PBS on behind-the-scenes moves in the Bush White House.

      In each case, Kirk says, a common thread has emerged: When it comes to "what goes on behind closed doors, it always leads to the vice president." ...

      Frontline reports that Cheney and David Addington, his former legal counsel and current chief of staff, have orchestrated a number of controversial legal decisions that granted Bush the power to detain, interrogate, torture, wiretap and spy without congressional approval or judicial review.

      That Frontline program, Cheney's Law, can be watched for free online.  Another Cheney-centric Frontline, The Dark Side, is also online.

      New York Times, 4/25/09:

      After the 9/11 attacks, Mr. Cheney’s influence in the Bush administration became even greater. He had been, after all, the defense secretary during the first gulf war. Mr. Bush, who took office in 2001 with virtually no experience in foreign policy, relied increasingly on Mr. Cheney’s judgment, which, whatever its other virtues or defects, seemed uncolored by personal political ambition. Reminded last year in a television interview that most Americans considered the Iraq war not worth fighting, Mr. Cheney responded, “So?”
      Article also discusses how Cheney's influence waned during Bush's 2nd term, which underscores how intense his influence had been previously.

      And Top Documentary Films has made The Unauthorized Biography of Dick Cheney available free online.

      You, too, can use Der Google, mein Fou.

      "Injustice wears ever the same harsh face wherever it shows itself." - Ralph Ellison

      by KateCrashes on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 03:52:48 PM PST

      [ Parent ]

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