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View Diary: So You're Offended by the Government's Ability To Execute Americans Without Due Process? (309 comments)

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  •  That's 100% true (11+ / 0-)

    What they want is the appearance of due process. But I have to ask: which is worse?

    Being killed quickly by a drone because you are accused of a crime?

    Or being given a sleeping lawyer in front of an angry jury after you're accused of a crime. Then having your death drawn out over many years, where you languish in solitary for 23 hours/day on death row, only to have appeals courts tell you that you don't deserve a lawyer who can stay awake. Then they come and drag you onto a gurney at some point, and kill you in a highly painful and very ceremonial way.

    Which of those is worse? One of those includes what people like Thomas would call "due process."

    "I believe that, as long as there is plenty, poverty is evil." ~Bobby Kennedy

    by Grizzard on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 12:56:54 PM PST

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    •  Which is worse? (18+ / 0-)

      What's worse, rape or kidnapping? Why rank horror and why set one important civil liberties issue off against another? I really hate the kind of politics you're playing. But what about my issue?

      It would be one thing if you were merely using the Paul filibuster to broaden the discussion to focus on our criminal injustice system; instead you're choosing to minimize important issues in the counterterrorism realm. It reminds me of when people, rather than using the treatment of Bradley Manning to focus on the horror of solitary confinement, would demean those who focused on it and rail on about selective outrage. It's both unfair and counterproductive.

      And rather than quietly support him or quietly mock him, Dems in Congress should've used his filibuster to broaden the discussion on drones -- to talk about the 99.9 percent of the some 5,000 victims who are not American.

      Paul's filibuster drew support from a wide range of groups, including groups that've done a little work to try to help people mistreated in our criminal justice system, like the ACLU.

      The ACLU has doggedly sought information from the government through the Freedom of Information Act on drones and wholeheartedly supported Paul’s effort.

      “It was a courageous and historic effort by Sen. Paul and his colleagues to demand information from this administration on an issue where they have refused to give it,” said

      Christopher Anders, senior legislative counsel to the ACLU. He said he hopes the ultimate broad Republican support for the filibuster signals a change in Congress.

      “This is part of Congress reasserting its constitutional role of checks and balances between the president and the Congress. For too long on national security issues we’ve had congress out to lunch,” said Anders.

      But clearly the ACLU doesn't care as much as you do about people on death row.

      By the way, you're on the rec list because of Rand Paul. Maybe you ought to shoot him a thank you note.

      •  I rec'd this b/c of right to a competent lawyer (7+ / 0-)

        not Rand F'ing Paul.

        look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

        by FishOutofWater on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 04:51:26 PM PST

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        •  OK (5+ / 0-)

          but Rand Paul is the peg. Without his filibuster, a post on criminal justice doesn't hit the top of the rec list.

          Just as a lot of groups who care about the Muslim victims of drone strikes have used to the Paul filibuster to highlight their issues, Grizzard could used the Paul filibuster to highlight his issues w/o dishonestly (or ignorantly, I'm not sure which) minimizing the important issues Paul highlighted.

          It's a yes, and approach as opposed to no, this approach.

          •  that's utterly wrong (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Yasuragi, vcmvo2

            Paul's hypocritical and opportunistic action is just being used  as more 'evidence' when most of the same people would be laughing thier heads off at paul's actions

            I agree with the diarist on Paul but frankly I broaden that to  every single person here defending that loon simply because this time he's saying what they want to hear

            In the time that I have been given,
            I am what I am

            by duhban on Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 05:54:03 AM PDT

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        •  I believe this diary is a well-crafted deflection. (6+ / 0-)

          By setting up Paul's hypocrisy for us to take potshots at, it makes the subject Paul's ranting about also seem of little account, thus neatly avoiding the necessity to even address the fact that a Democratic president is pushing this horrific policy.

          Simple partisan deflection--a way of defending Obama without ever mentioning his name. Nice skillful job, actually, just wish diarist were using his/her skills to help on a worthwhile task rather than protecting the guy who seems pretty damned well protected already--and who probably shouldn't be protected from criticism in the first place, since that's not good for Presidents at all, at all. Presidents get better when held accountable, like some fruit trees do better after a bit of cold weather.

          if necessary for years; if necessary, alone

          by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 12:21:12 AM PST

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          •  Instead of a deflection why isn't this diary just (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Yasuragi, vcmvo2

            a discussion of the fact that the concept of due process is a nuanced and complicated one. And that to simply rely on due process as reason to end drone warfare is opportunistic and selective. There are many reasons drone warfare is bad. But due process alone doesn't begin and end the conversation. Just like any discussion about the complexities of the issue doesn't automatically imply blind support of the President. Instead of deflection related to the President I see this diary as a call to begin to discuss the issue in a broader way.

            "Speak the TRUTH, even if your voice shakes."

            by stellaluna on Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 06:30:08 AM PDT

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            •  There's nothing complicated about (6+ / 0-)

              the issue of the President executing people without due process of law. There's nothing complicated about killing people without a trial.The Constitution, for very good reasons IMO, says POTUS can't do that.

              I am curious what you mean by "opportunistic" and "selective." What opportunity is being sought and what is being selected, or not selected? You're making it sound like someone is seeking some personal advantage by being pro-civil liberties.  I'd like you to come out and state what you think that advantage is.

              If this diary were "a call to discuss the issue in a broader way"--i.e., let's look at all the different ways people are denied due process-- it wouldn't tell people to focus on something else instead of the drone killings. And the tone of the diary would likely be different as well.

              if necessary for years; if necessary, alone

              by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 08:27:34 AM PDT

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              •  I probably was unclear. I meant that Rand was (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                vcmvo2

                being opportunistic and selective in worrying about due process. Because occasionally the drone issue seemed to be more about the President than about drones I think healthy skepticism about Rands motives is fair. Both due process and drone warfare are more complicated issues than ones that can be resolved by simple statements that the President is violating due process by murdering people without a trial. I'd love to see a discussion here about what should be done to address terrorism. What solutions people have instead of drones. These comments have lists of discussion about why the concept of due process is more nuanced in this situation.  

                "Speak the TRUTH, even if your voice shakes."

                by stellaluna on Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 10:03:49 AM PDT

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                •  Agree with you about Paul, of course. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Dallasdoc

                  It's a stunt; so, yeah, once again, the Republicans are posturing for the cameras. Not much in that except the higher than usual degree of hypocrisy.

                  But no, due process and drone warfare are not more complicated issues than can be solved by a simple statement that the President is violating due process by murdering people without a trial. That's what he's doing. Terrorism is no excuse. It was no excuse under Bush and it's no excuse now.  What should be done to address terrorism? Clean the Justice Dept. out of all the crooks and bastards there who side with the powerful against the powerless and replace them with people who know how to do real police work, and do it.

                  Next thing, you're going to be justifying the Patriot Act. At what point did it become gospel on this site that Bush and Cheney were right and that traditional police work supplemented by good international intelligence work was insufficient to meet the challenge of terrorism?

                  if necessary for years; if necessary, alone

                  by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 11:30:19 AM PDT

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      •  Herp, and a derp (13+ / 1-)

        I've written like 70 diaries on this site. Roughly half of them have made the rec list. All but like 3 of the diaries I've written since October have made the rec list. I think I can do just fine without the help of Rand Paul, thanks.

        And you're full of shit, frankly.

        You missed the entire point of my diary, which is curious. I don't care to say that my issue is more important. I care to say that there's no consistency here.

        It's to argue that people aren't nearly as principled as they say they are. If the thought of a person being killed without due process is so important to you (as it appeared to be, to Paul, a host of previously disinterested democrats, and a whole host of my idiot conservative friends), then where have you all been for all this time? If you're so principled on this issue, how the hell did you miss the sixth amendment getting trampled on for decades?

        People say - HEY, I CAN WORRY ABOUT MORE THAN ONE ISSUE CAN'T I?!!

        Sure, you can. I'm just asking that you do it. Because, frankly, up to this point, I haven't heard a whisper on the trampling of due process by the vast majority of people who happened to learn the phrase this week.

        "I believe that, as long as there is plenty, poverty is evil." ~Bobby Kennedy

        by Grizzard on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 05:06:03 PM PST

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        •  h/r for this (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Laurence Lewis, Kombema
          And you're full of shit, frankly.
          Completely unwarranted.
          •  Interesting (9+ / 0-)

            I earn my first HR in my own diary.

            He earned my warranted ire for suggesting that the only way my diary would have reached the recommended list is through the attention generated by the presence of Rand Paul. Which is a shot at me and my work, and unsubstantiated (the reason it's full of shit is because plenty of my crim justice diaries have lived long lives on the two promotion lists without the help of Rand Paul).

            "I believe that, as long as there is plenty, poverty is evil." ~Bobby Kennedy

            by Grizzard on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 05:48:09 PM PST

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            •  It was not a criticism of your work (6+ / 0-)

              You write many good posts, and I've rec'd a bunch of them -- this is an exception.

              I was merely pointing out that Rand's focus on due-process free killing created an opening that you walked through, to the top of the rec list. You could've done the same thing w/o minimizing deaths-by-drone.

              •  Did I minimize death by drone? (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                raincrow, Yasuragi

                I'm just asking that people treat one the same way they treat the other.

                The point of this diary was not to say that people should stop caring about drones. It was just to ask why people care about drones if they don't care about more common violations of the fifth and sixth amendment.

                "I believe that, as long as there is plenty, poverty is evil." ~Bobby Kennedy

                by Grizzard on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 06:41:02 PM PST

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              •  Jealous you didn't think of it, David? (4+ / 0-)

                Grizzard has written consistently, if not for very long, on the inequities of the court system, especially in Texas. I wish more people would write of subjects of substance, instead of nonsense like Rand Paul's tantrum.

                The Patriot Act stole many rights from American citizens, and I don't know who, if anyone, is fighting to get them back.

                Do a series on that, David, then whine about someone else's valid contribution to knowledge here.

                *There are two sides to every horseshit.* Kos

                by glorificus on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 07:29:14 PM PST

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              •  Because you don't like the title? n/t (0+ / 0-)

                "Throwing a knuckleball for a strike is like throwing a butterfly with hiccups across the street into your neighbor's mailbox." -- Willie Stargell

                by Yasuragi on Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 09:39:02 AM PDT

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          •  gosh, stevej, I thought donuts were NOT to be (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Yasuragi

            thrown for disagreement.

            We'll see, I guess.

            *There are two sides to every horseshit.* Kos

            by glorificus on Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 06:15:44 AM PDT

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          •  Totally bogus HR. (0+ / 0-)

            The kind I use when someone's been trolling for comment after comment, and they just need to to maybe stfu.

            "Throwing a knuckleball for a strike is like throwing a butterfly with hiccups across the street into your neighbor's mailbox." -- Willie Stargell

            by Yasuragi on Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 09:38:07 AM PDT

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        •  As I say below, (7+ / 0-)

          the target ( not clearly written) rant isn't clear. If you're arguing that Rand Paul and his right-wing piggy backers don't care about due process in the criminal justice system, we'll of course.

          If you're arguing that, say, Pat Leahy, who both praised Paul and voted against Brennan, doesn't care about criminal justice, you're misinformed.

          If you're pissed off that mainstream Democrats, like those who populate dkos, don't care more about the horrors of the criminal justice system, well welcome to the club. I"ve been pissed off about that longer than you've been alive. And I can express that anger without minimizing very important life and death issues, like executive power in the counterterrorism realm.

          I wish Paul's focus had been broader but to dismiss it his effort as nothing more than a battle against hypothetical etc. is dishonest. He also took on the scope of the AUMF and the shoddy legal reason in the White Paper, which is why people who've been out front battling a program that, among other things, incinerates poor Muslim children, praised Paul's effort.

          Not only should the US drone war not be placed in opposition to criminal injustice, those issues are connected. All this shit is connected.

          I used to work for a criminal justice reform outfit and now I work for a human rights group that works against the drone insanity, and I feel like it's the same fight, because it is.

        •  Your point about due process is strong (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          quagmiremonkey, Dallasdoc

          With making it an either/or.  What many will take out of this diary is that there is something wrong with supporting Rand Paul's position because there is only so much due process related outrage to go around and supporting Paul is a misappropriation of a finite amount of outrage at the expense of the issues you raise.  

          What that serves to do is take a subset of people of this site who are very much predisposed to being receptive to both your concerns about the criminal justice system and Paul's concerns about drones and creates a false dichotomy.  The people who supported, at least to some degree, what senator Paul was highlighting, are now now less likely to be receptive to the extremely important problems with the justice system your diary catalogues.  By questioning the validity of their concerns, you are antagonizing the very people most likely to be supportive of your argument.  

        •  I didn't miss the 6th getting trampled for decades (4+ / 0-)

          and every time I objected to the trampling, there was some pragmatist defending the continued erosion of the Bill of Rights, or blaming me b/c I expected the Democratic party to fight to defend it.

          It doesn't matter who is arguing for preserving the Bill of Rights, especially due process (4, 5, 6th amendments the heart of the Bill of Rights IMO). It doesn't matter who's arguing against it.  Line up with the Constitution, and fight for it, in every instance you can until you run out of breath and your limbs turn to water. Fight. Fight. Forget this partisan nonsense and remember what home is. Because our home, as Americans, is in these ideas. Without them we are exiles, plain and simple, extraneous to our government which is a sham anyway when you get rid of the rule of law (who cares who makes or administers laws if the power of the law is held in total contempt? What is the justification of summary execution but the justification of might makes right?)

          if necessary for years; if necessary, alone

          by SouthernLiberalinMD on Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 12:28:39 AM PST

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        •  Well said, Grizzard. I can't understand (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          fou

          the folks here with the knickers all in a twist because you dared mention Rand Paul in a diary that didn't also assail the presidency.

          I would have thought this was an excellent opportunity to discuss equal rights in the courtroom...  Seems most folks on this site these days have a kind of presbyopia: can't see near; can't see far.

          "Throwing a knuckleball for a strike is like throwing a butterfly with hiccups across the street into your neighbor's mailbox." -- Willie Stargell

          by Yasuragi on Sun Mar 10, 2013 at 09:37:01 AM PDT

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      •  I second this (9+ / 0-)

        and expressed a similar sentiment below. This is not the way to build coalitions.  Luckily, there are plenty of other people to team up with, plenty of organizations like the ACLU to support and follow, and they don't just show up in a partisan tantrum when it's time to mock those who supported Rand Paul on one issue, for one day.  They do it every day, every week, every year and I support them 24/7/365.


        "Justice is a commodity"

        by joanneleon on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 05:06:33 PM PST

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      •  exactly (9+ / 0-)

        my wrong is worse than your wrong so you're wrong to be upset about your wrong.

        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

        by Laurence Lewis on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 05:35:43 PM PST

        [ Parent ]

        •  No (6+ / 0-)

          That's not what I'm arguing at all.

          I'm arguing that people care about one and not about the other. Which leads me to believe they care about one for some reason other than a spirited belief in constitutional principles.

          I don't care that people are upset about drone strikes. I just question why they're not also concerned about those same rights being denied in kangaroo courts across the country.

          "I believe that, as long as there is plenty, poverty is evil." ~Bobby Kennedy

          by Grizzard on Sat Mar 09, 2013 at 05:44:16 PM PST

          [ Parent ]

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