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View Diary: Angry Bear: “Trans-Pacific Partnership: A New Constitution” (56 comments)

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  •  If you comment in a diary without reading it... (12+ / 0-)

    ...(and without clicking upon the links) chances are you're not exactly putting your best foot forward.

    "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

    by bobswern on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 09:21:09 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

      •  So, then you must be deliberately trolling... (11+ / 0-)

        ...(which would be quite far from the first time you've done that in one of my posts) or, your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired.

        "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

        by bobswern on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 09:26:09 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  It's basically CT (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FG

          The author's trying to make the TPP out to be "the constitution of a new world order", because apparently it has an investment chapter.  Never mind that almost all our other free trade agreements have similar investment chapters and that it's pretty much standard practice in trade agreements between most other countries as well.

          We already have free trade agreements with most of the countries in the TPP negotiations.  If the agreement is passed it'll essentially add investment powerhouses Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei and New Zealand to the list of our FTA partners.  That's the new world order??

          There's a lot of hyperbole around the TPP.  Don't get suckered.

          Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre.

          by Sky Net on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 02:16:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Really? So, you must be pretty high up.... (5+ / 0-)

            ...on the political food chain, then. Because there are only 600 registered (gov't) trade agents in this country, and they're the only ones privy to the (secret) agreement drafts. Otherwise, you're just talking out of your ass. (But, that never happens around here, right? Especially when it comes to the comments of folks dealing with the effects of extreme cognitive dissonance within my posts. LOL!)

            "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

            by bobswern on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 02:55:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Everything I wrote is public info (0+ / 0-)

              Was there some part of my comment you weren't aware of?

              Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre.

              by Sky Net on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 02:56:42 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  No links = bullsh*t! Also.... (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                ek hornbeck, TheMomCat, lostinamerica

                ...if there's public "info,"and/or legitimate links, they better be related to AGREEMENT DRAFT language. Otherwise, it's just political bullshit/spin! It's not what's SAID. It's what's DONE. So, where are the credible LINKS to actual/RECENT document drafts? No links, means you're just "sellin' woof tickets." And, fewer and fewer people living in a reality-based world are buying 'em these days.

                "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

                by bobswern on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 03:14:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Huh? (0+ / 0-)

                  Most of what I wrote is in the wikipedia page that you encouraged everyone to read.

                  What is it you're looking for links to?  I'm seriously confused as to what part of my comment you're having trouble with.

                  Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre.

                  by Sky Net on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 03:18:41 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  By all means....cite excerpts, then... (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    ek hornbeck, TheMomCat, lostinamerica

                    provide attribution...and, if they're outdated, or they're not based upon actual/current draft language of the Agreement, then that needs to be acknowledged, as well.

                    "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

                    by bobswern on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 03:22:00 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  And, speaking of "links," if you bothered to... (4+ / 0-)

                      ..READ the links, you'd fully realize that objections to this Agreement relate to its (basic) ENTIRETY...not just "the investment chapter."

                      "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

                      by bobswern on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 03:24:40 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Once again (0+ / 0-)

                      What part of my comment are you not familiar with?  The countries in the TPP?  The ones we already have FTAs with?  Investment practices in other countries?

                      Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre.

                      by Sky Net on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 03:27:02 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Now you're just going off the deep end... (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Don midwest

                        ...changing the subject and making irrelevant statements. Period. Still waiting for ATTRIBUTION and related/specific/leigitmate support for your vacuous claims. (And, no, political spin does NOT count as a credible link.)

                        "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

                        by bobswern on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 03:57:27 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Seriously (0+ / 0-)

                          You have to be more clear.  What claims did I make that you're looking for support on?  Is there something in my comment that was really new to you?

                          Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre.

                          by Sky Net on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 04:02:36 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Seriously? (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Don midwest

                            Normally, anyone who publishes a comment like this (see below) in one of my posts doesn't deserve the time of day. "Seriously." I asked you to support your belligerent comment with links/quotes. Your response was inadequate.  I learned, many years ago, to not waste my time trying to politely interact with the handful of folks here that come across as disingenuously as you are now. But, I gave you the benefit of the doubt. So far, that was a mistake. Right now, all you are is someone with an ad hom, and follow-up bullshit in a comment thread in my post. Any rational, objective observer would support this assessment. Is that who you are?

                                It's basically CT

                                The author's trying to make the TPP out to be "the constitution of a new world order", because apparently it has an investment chapter.  Never mind that almost all our other free trade agreements have similar investment chapters and that it's pretty much standard practice in trade agreements between most other countries as well.

                                We already have free trade agreements with most of the countries in the TPP negotiations.  If the agreement is passed it'll essentially add investment powerhouses Vietnam, Malaysia, Brunei and New Zealand to the list of our FTA partners.  That's the new world order??

                                There's a lot of hyperbole around the TPP.  Don't get suckered.

                            "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

                            by bobswern on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 08:47:16 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Odd (0+ / 0-)

                            This really is one of the odder exchanges I've had on this site.  I disagreed with the article (which wasn't even yours), but not belligerently.  The article tries to make it sound like the TPP is this incredible new beast that actually has an investment chapter.  Shock.  It doesn't mention that investment chapters are pretty standard in FTAs, and that the TPP just adds a few more relatively small countries to our list of FTA partners.  That's hardly what one could call "the constitution for a new world order".  Yes, there are other controversial parts of the TPP, but about 90% of the article and links were about the investment chapter.

                            I'm seriously befuddled by why you're so put out by that.  There's no links necessary to support any of what I wrote.  Investment chapters are standard in FTAs.  Take a look at USTR's website or any other country's trade website and you can see it.  There's really nothing new in my comment.

                            I am curious, however.  Did you not know that almost all our FTAs have investment chapters that include investor-state dispute settlement provisions?  Was that a surprise?  No big deal if you don't, not everybody's a trade expert, but their existence isn't something controversial.  I'm wondering just how much people really understand this, however.

                            Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre.

                            by Sky Net on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 11:17:18 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Clearly, you do not understand this... (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Don midwest

                            ...and you have yet to provide a blockquote or link supporting your claim (with the info in that link blockquoted in your response). Here's a link or two; and, for the record, it comprehensively addresses your trollish bullsh*t (totally blows it out of the water, in fact; again), as well: "What You Need to Know About a Worldwide Corporate Power Grab of Enormous Proportions," Laurel Sutherlin at the Rainforest Action Network, via Alternet (9/11/12). And, here's an excellent press brief from the Citizens Trade Campaign (9/5/12).

                            I hope you had fun tonight. We're done talkin'.

                            "I always thought if you worked hard enough and tried hard enough, things would work out. I was wrong." --Katharine Graham

                            by bobswern on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 11:33:48 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Quite an unusual day (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm still not sure what claim you're referring to, and since you haven't been able to answer any of my questions about that, I can only conclude a couple things.

                            First, you didn't realize before you posted this diary that the U.S. has investment chapters in nearly all its FTAs (and lots of BITs to boot) and thought that the TPP was the first of its kind.

                            Second, you didn't realize that the U.S. already has FTAs with most TPP countries.

                            This isn't rocket science here.  I don't have to post links to every FTA we've ever done to demonstrate it.  Just spend a few minutes on the USTR website and you can confirm it pretty quickly.  I've hardly said anything outlandish or difficult to verify.  If you really weren't familiar with the investment chapters and our FTAs, well, then you've found an area to improve your knowledge on.

                            Lastly, I'm disappointed that you're not able to see through the hyperbole in your links.  You know the game.  If a group is trying to push a particular issue, they make it sound like the world is coming to an end unless you support their position.  That way you're more likely to take action.  It takes a bit of research to find out what the truth is, usually somewhere in between.  Hence my final piece of advice in my first comment, don't get suckered.  You have to question things, even from people and bloggers that you like.

                            Cynicism is what passes for insight among the mediocre.

                            by Sky Net on Wed Mar 13, 2013 at 04:25:25 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                      •  The countries are actually a huge issue (0+ / 0-)

                        Not just because it's more countries, it's also an issue of being open ended. Once this is passed there will be no public input into further expanding it to as many countries as they may feel like.

                        These trade treaties are why our manufacturing base is gone. It's one of the things Obama had originally ran against. Too bad that the Dems and republicans are on the same side on this issue. It's pathetic.

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