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View Diary: "Y-Chromosomal Adam" possibly farther back in time than thought (237 comments)

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  •  I see that Irish slavery theme but wonder... (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    oceanview, greenearth, Sapere aude

    maybe someone here actually knows if that's acceoted truth, or truthy as I have only, or mostly seen it on sites I have big reservations about, thinking that maybe the theme is that maybe since the white Irish were also enslaved the Africans should quit whining about it or some bullshit, I just haven't seen it posted on a site I trust and haven't done any further searching.
    ...and specifically interesting was the claim that hundreds of thousands were enslaved and taken to the Caribean.

    Anybody really know if any of that is true or just more wingnut truthiness?

    Thanks...and thanks for this Terry, I wanted to find out more about this DNA story. Very interesting.

    This machine kills Fascists.

    by KenBee on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 04:38:25 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  The American version of slavery that we know (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      kaliope, Gordon20024, KenBee

      associated with captured African people was an anomaly in the world. There were a lot of different approaches to compelling labor or services from people and in many places and cultures over time, being carried off as a prize of war was fairly common.

      There were different rules in different cultures, some were a sort of indentured servitude, some were made to work as servants or drudges, farm hands, laborers, miners, etc. People with skills, metal working or writing, accounting, etc, were more valuable and could buy their way free more easily. Many could be bought back by their families for a price, some were married, (forcibly or not), into the family they served, some were allowed outside work to buy their own freedom. Traditions varied regarding sex and whether those in servitude had the right to say no or not.

       The inherited class of permanent slavery that America developed was not the norm.

      Can't shed any light about the Irish taken to the Caribbean, hadn't heard about it.

      Information is abundant, wisdom is scarce. ~The Druid.
      ~Ideals aren't goals, they're navigation aids.~

      by FarWestGirl on Tue Mar 12, 2013 at 06:15:24 PM PDT

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    •  I was just talking with an Irish-American recently (4+ / 0-)

      who adamantly denied that racism exists in Boston and America. I couldn't figure out how she could hold such a view. I kept talking to her about data which showed how institutionalized and acculturated the racism is.

      Finally, she got all blustery and said, "I'm an indigenous person! My people lived in Ireland for 40,000 years before being enslaved by the British."

      I was taken aback.

      First, we're in Boston where the Irish Americans led the anti-busing crusade in lockstep with the KKK.

      Second, even if your people suffered somewhere else, that doesn't justify denying someone else's plight.

      I just couldn't see the logic in her denial of racism.

    •  read (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Gordon20024, KenBee

      the invention of the white race, theodore allen

      and/or

      race in north america, audrey smedley

      there are many other sources

      the british sent the irish into slavery as a method of subduing irish resistance

      the british also used the word 'race' in our modern meaning first to refer to the irish

      the british believed the irish were a different race, but you have to understand this had to do with competition for the land and resources which were exacerbated by cultural and religious difference.

      the average white student taught this seems to react with real surprise and begins to understand how truly arbitrary slavery was and is: anyone can fall into it

    •  irish slavery IN THE VIKING PERIOD, 790-1066 (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      KenBee

      is what I was talking about. and welsh slaves and british slaves etc, etc. these captured people would be taken back to Scandinavia, or sold away, in this case, mostly to Arab traders. The Norse & the Arabs would trade slaves directly, because the Christians in between wouldn't deal in Christian slaves! the Vikings would take inventory south, to Spain, or the Caspian Sea, or the Arab traders would come north, probably to the big Scandinavian market towns like Hedeby (on the German border) & Kaupang (near where Oslo would be), Jorvik, Bergen (Norway), Birka (Birch Island, Lake Malar, Uppsala/Stockholm), Helgo (Holy Island, Lake Malar, Stockholm), different cities at different times.

      Also, the Baltic wasn't Christian at this period, so Prussia, Estonia/Latvia/Lithuania, Finland, the Pechenegs, the Rus & the Slavs, etc., were also market areas. Also, Viking period slavery was NOT the same as slavery/indenture in the New World; it was a lot more like Roman slavery, which you could work your way out of! Not racially-based at all.

      sorry I don't have official documentation for this, just 40 years of studying academic writings, mostly European. We do have the books, but this is MY comment, not the scholar's, I'm just picking his brains. The DNA these days is confirming it lots.

      Oh, and there are a few mentions of the Arabs bringing north "bla(r)menn", pronounced "blaumenn", which could mean either black men or blue men (Taureg?) So there definitely could be African-Scandinavians from a thousand years ago.

      "real" work : a job where you wash your hands BEFORE you use the bathroom...

      by chimene on Wed Mar 13, 2013 at 01:54:42 AM PDT

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      •  Back when the Vikings were around (0+ / 0-)

        Back when the Vikings were around, Christians could own Christian slaves. They were not supposed to sell Christians to non-Christians.

        When you see these rules, femember that they were rules. We don't always obey rules today, and they didn't always obey rules back then.

        I don't know how well they obeyed the rules about selling Christians, but there were occasional attempts to free Christian slaves of Jews in various Christian lands.

    •  Irish slaves were real (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Be Skeptical

      Slavery was common in most ancient societies.

      People owned people of their own ethnicity, but imported slaves were also common.

      (Our "slave" has the same root as "Slav." The Latin, "servus" is preserved in "servant" and "serf." At one time, people in England thought that the typical slave was a Slav. Aristotle wrote that Greeks were naturally free, but those who couldn't speak Greek were naturally slave.)

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