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View Diary: Have you ever? I mean ever seen any bill like this ? (174 comments)

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  •  With respect to (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    KVoimakas, Patrick Costighan, MAORCA
    nothing like a frat party with an AK 47 and all the booze you want.
    This statement is pure hyperbole that does not depict the reality of the situation.   Allowing campus carry means that adult students, in most states those over 21 only, who have been through the process of obtaining a permit may carry and this represents a small percentage of the campus.  The argument that blood will run in the streets is guns aren't prohibited has been thrown out several times and has not come true.  

    Gun Free Zones do not prevent criminals from using guns.  Magic barriers don't work.  The only thing that they do is disarm law abiding citizens and make hunting grounds for criminals.

    My state, North Carolina, is also working on both a campus carry and campus parking lot bills.  As a university employee I will directly benefit from both of these bills and I most certainly hope that they pass.

    •  Tell that to any Virginia Tech parent (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Glen The Plumber, LilithGardener

      and see what happens.   I know of no one who is of legal majority and the bill also carried for guns in bars...who really has their emotions together and thinking process .   All grown up true enough is not a magic number but 21 years on earth does not make a grown up..   Hyperbole?  Maybe the choice of weapon..Not the concept.  They want to carry..join the military.

      We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

      by Vetwife on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 05:09:54 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  just ignore this one... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LilithGardener, Vetwife

        signed up 3 days after 12/14...only talks guns...only here to discourage and distract.


        We are not broke, we are being robbed.

        by Glen The Plumber on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 06:28:21 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  You mean like Holly Adams? (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Patrick Costighan, noway2, MAORCA
        There is an unfortunate drive for more gun control and the continuation of preventing guns on campus by parents whose children lived or survived during that fatal day. Several family members of those victims have actively voiced their support for increased gun control measures. As result, it has been assumed that they speak for all families of the Virginia Tech victims. I am writing this to make it clear that this is not the case. They do not represent me and my views.

        Speaking for myself, I would give anything if someone on campus; a professor, one of the trained military or guardsman taking classes or another student could have saved my daughter by shooting Cho before he killed our loved ones. Because professors, staff and students are precluded from protecting themselves on campus, Cho, a student at Virginia Tech himself, was able to simply walk on campus and go on a killing rampage with no worry that anyone would stop him.

        I ask a simple question: Would the other parents of victims be forever thankful if a professor or student was allowed to carry a firearm and could have stopped Seung-Hui Cho before their loved one was injured or killed? I would be. I also suspect that the tragedy may not have occurred at all if Cho knew that either faculty members or students were permitted to carry their own weapons on campus. Cho took his own life before campus police were able to reach him and put a stop to his killing spree.

        Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

        by KVoimakas on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 06:42:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The criminal protection zones carry a side effect (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MAORCA

          too in that by prohibiting people from carrying or even keeping one locked in their vehicle, as some states do, the gun free zones extend to anyplace that one may go after leaving the school.  This is a clean infringement and one that extends well beyond the boundaries of the prohibition.

          A second side effect is that the prohibitions also make felons out of any parent that drops their children off while they lawfully have a gun in their car.  The alternative is to find places off school property, park, and then walk their children to school.  This creates multiple safety issues, one with leaving a gun unattended in a vehicle, two requiring that children be made to walk through what are likely congested traffic areas.

        •  Sure, just deputize the professors, or how about (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Glen The Plumber

          some grad students. They're desperate for some extra money.

          Let's just train and deputize some George Zimmerman types  to form a campus watch program. What could possibly go wrong?

          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

          by LilithGardener on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 02:20:23 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  No. (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Patrick Costighan, noway2

        "Want to exercise this constitutionally enshrined right? Go join this group" is bullshit no matter what right you're talking about.

        Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

        by KVoimakas on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 06:43:49 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  In bars? Now that's a bad idea. I was in (3+ / 0-)

        a bar last night and guess what, I was the only one that didn't have any alcohol (just sodas, though they were cheap).  Even then, that was mainly because I had a 3 hour drive back home afterwards.  That's right, even when the bar is also a venue for live shows and there is a show going on pretty much everyone is going to be drinking.

        You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

        by Throw The Bums Out on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 08:08:41 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Re (0+ / 0-)

          Lots of restaurants have bars.  Follow one simple rule--don't drink--and you'll be just fine.

          When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

          by Patrick Costighan on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 08:35:31 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I don't mean restaurants with bars, I mean just (3+ / 0-)

            bars.  How many people do you think will go to an actual bar (as in they get at least 75% of all revenue from alcohol sales) and not drink even if they are carrying?  Note that I do not carry and Missouri does not allow concealed carry in bars.

            You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

            by Throw The Bums Out on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 08:59:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Re: (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              KVoimakas

              I would hope designated drivers do.  My state permits carrying concealed or openly any place that's not a school, a court, and points of controlled access (i.e., metal detectors).  Private property is at the owner's discretion.  I don't carry when I go out to eat and certainly when I intend drink, but if a bunch of us coming from the range want a bite to eat most of us carry inside.  Why?  Because I think it's a pretty dumb idea to trusting the locks on your car to keep valuables and dangerous items safe.

              When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

              by Patrick Costighan on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 09:05:29 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  And just what are you going to be eating at a bar (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                LilithGardener, Glen The Plumber

                (not a restaurant with a bar)?  Do you really think most people won't carry even when they are going to be drinking?

                You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

                by Throw The Bums Out on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 09:17:03 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  Hope is not a strategy nt (0+ / 0-)

                "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                by LilithGardener on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 02:21:28 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Re (0+ / 0-)

                  Neither is an unenforceable ban on concealed carry in bars.

                  When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

                  by Patrick Costighan on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 02:25:12 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Do you have a reference? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Glen The Plumber

                    Which of these state laws have changed their laws re   alcohol use/ firearm sale-carry-use since 2010?

                    24. 18 U.S.C. § 922(d)(3); (g)(3).
                    25. 21 U.S.C. § 802(6).
                    26. See generally Ala Code § 13A-11-50 (2004).
                    27. See generally Alaska Stat § 11.61.190 et seq (2009); 18.65.700 et seq (2009).
                    28. See generally Ariz Stat. § 13-905 et seq (2009); § 13-3101 (2010).
                    29. See generally Ark Stat Ann § 5-73-101 et seq (2010); 5-73-201 et seq (2010). 30. See generally California Penal Code § 12000 et seq (2010); Cal WeIf & Inst Code § 8100 et seq (2009).
                    31. See generally Col Revised Stat § 12-26.1-101 (2002); 18-12-101 et seq (2010); 24-33.5-424 (2008).
                    32. See generally Conn Gen Stat § 29-27 (2010) et seq; 53-202 et seq (2010); 53a-211 et seq (2010).
                    33. See generally Del Code § 11-1441 (2007) et seq; 24-901 et seq (2010).
                    34. See generally Fla Stat § 790.001 et seq (2010).
                    35. See generally Ga Code Ann § 16-11-101.1 et seq (2009); 16-11-171 (2009); 16-11-172 (2005); 35-3-34 (2006).
                    36. See generally Haw Rev Stat § 134-1 et seq (2009).
                    37. See generally Idaho Code § 18-310 (2010); 18-3302 et seq (2006).
                    38. See generally Ill Rev Stat 430:65/0.01 et seq (2006); 720:5/24-1 et seq (2009).
                    39. See generally Ind Code Ann § 35- et seq (2010).
                    40. See generally Iowa Code § 702.7 (2008); 724.1 et seq (2010).
                    41. See generally Kansas Stat Ann § 21-4201 et seq (2009).
                    42. See generally Ky Rev Stat Ann § 237.060 et seq (2009); 431.064 (2007); 527.010 et seq (1994).
                    43. See generally La Rev Stat Ann § 14:35.3, 91, 95 et seq (2009); 40:1379.3, 1751 et seq (2008).
                    44. See generally Me Rev Stat Ann title 15 § 393 (2007).
                    45. See generally Md Code Crim Law § 4 (2010); Public Safety § = (2010).
                    46. See generally Mass Gen Laws 140 § 121 et seq (2004).
                    47. See generally Mich Comp Laws Ann 3.111 et seq (2004); § 28.421 et seq (2008); 750.222 et seq (2001).
                    48. See generally Minn Stat § 609.165 (2003); 609.66 et seq (2005); 624.71 et seq (1969).
                    49. See generally Miss Code Ann 45-9-101 (2009); 97-37-1 et seq (2007).
                    50. See generally Mo Rev Stat § 407.500, 505 (2008); 571.010 et seq (2008).
                    51. See generally Mont Code Ann § 45-8-301 et seq (2009); 46-18-801 (1997).
                    52. See generally Neb Rev Stat § 28-1201 et seq (2009); 69-2401 et seq (2009).
                    53. See generally Nev Rev Stat § 202.253 et seq (2005).
                    54. See generally NH Rev Stat Ann § 159-D et seq (1999).
                    55. See generally NJ Rev Stat § 2C:39-1 et seq (2002); 2C:58-1 et seq (1979).
                    56. See generally NM Stat Ann § et seq (2010).
                    57. See generally NY Crim Proc Law § 265.00 (2004) and 400.00; Gen Bus Law Art 39-DD.
                    58. See generally NC Gen Stat § 14-269.7 et seq (1994); 14-402 et seq (2009).
                    59. See generally ND Cent Code § 62.1-01 et seq (2004).
                    60. See generally Ohio Rev Code § 2923.11 et seq (2008).
                    61. See generally Okla Stat 21 § 1271.1 et seq (19944).
                    62. See generally Or Rev Stat § 166.170 et seq (2009).
                    63. See generally Pa Cons Stat 18§ 6101 et seq (1995).
                    64. See generally RI Gen Laws § 8-8.1-3 (2005); 11-47-1 et seq (2009).
                    65. See generally SC Code Ann § 16-23-10 et seq (2004); 23-31-10 et seq (1971).
                    66. See generally SD Codified Laws § 23-7 et seq (2009).
                    67. See generally Tenn Code Ann § 39-17-1301 et seq (2009).
                    68. See generally Tex Penal Code § 30.06; 42.12; 46.01 et seq (2003).
                    68. See generally Utah Code Ann § 53-5-702 et seq (2005); 76-10-501 et seq (2001).
                    70. See generally Vt Stat Ann § 13-4003 et seq (2009).
                    71. See generally Va Code Ann § 18.2-279 et seq (2005); 54.1-4201.1 (2005).
                    72. See generally Wash Rev Code § 9.41.010 et seq (2009).
                    73. See generally W Va Code § et seq (2002).
                    74. See generally Wis Stat § 175.30 et seq (2009); 175.35 (2009); 941.20 et seq (2008).
                    75. See generally Wyo Stat § 6-8-101 et seq (1983).

                    "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                    by LilithGardener on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 02:31:01 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Re (0+ / 0-)

                      What are you talking about?

                      When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

                      by Patrick Costighan on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 02:37:14 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  A number of states have liberalized their (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Glen The Plumber

                        concealed carry or open carry laws since 2010. I'm not sure which ones.

                        I'm asking if anyone knows which states also tightened laws that separate alcohol and guns, e.g. separate lawful alcohol use from lawful RKBA.

                        E.g. if 1) a state loosened concealed carry by allowing carry in church, (which sounds scary) but at the same time they 2) outlawed concealed or open carry while under the influence that would be a net gain in public safety.

                        I wouldn't want open carry in church, but if I had to make a trade off of (trained and proficiency tested) concealed carry in church in order to separate alcohol/guns I would consider that a step toward reducing gun violence.

                        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                        by LilithGardener on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 02:47:11 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

            •  The first person that I knew that had a concealed (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              KVoimakas

              carry permit was a coworker in VA.  He would go to the bars after work to socialize with coworkers and not drink alcohol because he was carrying a firearm.

              •  I am qualified to speak of Temple Ga folks.. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                LilithGardener, Glen The Plumber

                when they get drunk..they put a whole new meaning to neck being red.

                We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

                by Vetwife on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 02:20:30 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The separation of alcohol / firearms (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Vetwife, Glen The Plumber

                  is an area I'm trying to learn more about. When I was researching my diary on straw buyers I was astonished to learn that alcohol was exempt from prohibited category No. 5 (at the federal level), but was also glad to learn that the "prohibited persons" group is larger than just convicted felons and those who have been adjudicated mentally ill or defective.

                  5.  Unlawful Drug User or Drug Addict: This prohibited person category includes any person who unlawfully uses—or is addicted to—marijuana, depressants, stimulants, narcotic drugs, or other controlled substances. Alcohol is NOT considered a controlled substance.
                  Please permit me to post an excerpt from that diary - I want to help people know who is already prohibited under current federal law.

                  There is info about the age limits below but I do not know if they only apply to purchasing. E.g. I don't know if it's federally prohibited to gift your 19 year old a handgun, even though they can not legally buy one.

                  Federal Firearms Licensee Quick Reference and Best Practices Guide
                  (A few excerpts)

                  http://www.atf.gov/...

                  Prohibited Transfers

                  You MAY NOT sell or transfer a firearm or ammunition to any person you know or have reasonable cause to believe is prohibited from possessing or receiving a  firearm. Do not sell or otherwise transfer a firearm and do not contact NICS if you have reason to believe that a person seeking to obtain a firearm is prohibited from receiving or possessing a firearm.

                  Note: If a person answers “No” to Item 11.a or 12 of Form 4473, or answers “Yes” to one or more questions in Items 11.b through 11.l of Form 4473, that person has given you reason to believe he or she is prohibited and the transaction must be stopped.

                  You MAY NOT sell or transfer a firearm or ammunition to any of the following prohibited persons or in the following circumstances:

                  1. Straw Purchaser: A “straw purchaser” is a person who is not the “actual buyer” of the firearm; that is, a person who obtains a firearm for another person. Straw purchases are a primary source of firearms used in crime. If you suspect that a transaction is a straw purchase or there are suspicious circumstances surrounding the potential sale—such as one person picking out the firearm, handling the firearm, and providing the payment for the firearm while another person completes the Form 4473—you should not sell the firearm. Similarly, if one person attempts to purchase a firearm, NICS denies or delays the attempted purchase, and another person with him or her attempts to buy the same firearm, you must not complete this sale.

                  2.  Person Under Indictment: A person “under indictment” includes any person who has been charged by indictment or information in any court with a crime for which he or she may be sentenced to a term of imprisonment exceeding 1 year.

                  3.  Person Convicted of a Crime Punishable by Imprisonment for a Term Exceeding 1 Year: This prohibited person category includes any person who has been convicted of a felony or other crime for which the person could have been sentenced to imprisonment for a term exceeding 1 year—EVEN if the court actually placed the person on probation or sentenced the person to a term of imprisonment for 1 year or less.

                  4.  Fugitive from Justice: A fugitive from justice is a person who has fled from any State to avoid prosecution for a crime (felony or misdemeanor) or to avoid giving testimony in any criminal proceeding.

                  5.  Unlawful Drug User or Drug Addict: This prohibited person category includes any person who unlawfully uses—or is addicted to—marijuana, depressants, stimulants, narcotic drugs, or other controlled substances. Alcohol is NOT considered a controlled substance.

                  6.  Adjudicated Mental Defective or Person Involuntarily Committed to a Mental Institution: This prohibited person category includes any person who has EVER been adjudicated by a court, board, commission, or other lawful authority to be, as a result of marked subnormal intelligence or mental illness, incompetency, condition, or disease, a danger to himself or herself or to others or to lack the mental capacity to contract or to manage his/or her own affairs. This category also includes any person who has been subject to a finding of insanity in a criminal case, including a finding that he or she is incompetent to stand trial. Also included is any person who has EVER been formally committed to a mental institution by a court or other lawful authority. This category does NOT include a person committed to a mental institution solely for observation or a person who was voluntarily admitted to a mental institution.

                  7.  Person Dishonorably Discharged from the Military: A person is considered dishonorably discharged only if he or she was separated from the Armed Forces of the United States as a result of a dishonorable discharge or a dismissal adjudged by a general court-martial. This prohibition does NOT include persons with a bad conduct discharge or any other less than honorable discharge.

                  8. Person Subject to a Restraining Order: This prohibited person category includes any person who is currently subject to a court order that restrains the person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner, child of the person, or child of the intimate partner OR engaging in other conduct that would place the intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the intimate partner or child. The court order must meet the specific requirements of 18 U.S.C. § 922(g)(8) to be prohibiting.

                  9. Person Convicted of a Misdemeanor Crime of Domestic Violence: This prohibited person category includes any person who has EVER been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence regardless of the title of the offense. The offense must meet the definition of “misdemeanor crime of domestic violence” in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(33). Note: Unlike other prohibited person categories, law enforcement officers purchasing firearms for official use are NOT exempt from this prohibited person category.

                  10. Person who has Renounced U.S. Citizenship: A person has renounced his or her United States citizenship if he or she takes formal steps to renounce her/his citizenship before a diplomatic or consular officer or before an officer designated by the Attorney General during a time of war.

                  11. Aliens Illegally or Unlawfully in the United States: This prohibited person category includes any person who unlawfully entered the United States or who illegally remains in the United States after his or her authorized period of stay has expired.

                  11a. Nonimmigrant Aliens: A nonimmigrant alien is an alien who is lawfully in the United States on a temporary basis for purposes of travel, business, study, etc. The term does NOT include a permanent resident alien (someone who possesses a “green card.”) A nonimmigrant alien may only purchase or receive a firearm if he or she: (a) was admitted to the United States for lawful hunting or sporting purposes or presents a valid hunting license or permit issued by a State; (b) qualifies as a foreign diplomat, official, or law enforcement officer as defined at 18 U.S.C. § 922(y)(2); or (c) has received a waiver of the prohibition from the Attorney General.

                  12. Sale of a Firearm or Ammunition to a Person Under Age 18: You may not sell or deliver a firearm or ammunition to a person you know or have reasonable cause to believe is less than 18 years old.

                  13. Sale of a Handgun or Handgun Ammunition to a Person Under Age 21: You may not sell or deliver a firearm other than a rifle or a shotgun—or ammunition other than rifle or shotgun ammunition—to a person who you know or have reasonable cause to believe is less than 21 years old. A firearm frame or receiver is not a rifle or shotgun and may not be sold to a person under 21 years old.

                  14. Sale in Violation of State Law or Published Ordinance: You may not sell or deliver a firearm to any person in any State where the purchase or possession would be in violation of a State law or published ordinance.

                  We recommend that you refer to the most recent edition of ATF’s State Laws and Published Ordinances–Firearms.
                  Age Restrictions

                  As noted above, under Federal law, the minimum age to purchase firearms and ammunition from an FFL is 18. If the firearm is other than a rifle or a shotgun—or ammunition for other than a rifle or a shotgun—the minimum age is 21 [18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1)].

                  However:

                  1. You may sell ammunition that is interchangeable between rifles and handguns to a buyer who is at least 18 years of age if you are satisfied that he or she will use the ammunition in a rifle.

                  2. Regardless of less restrictive State and local age requirements for firearms and ammunition purchases, you must adhere to the above Federal mininum age
                  provisions.

                  Transfers Between Licensees

                  Generally, FFLs may transfer firearms to other FFLs, including interstate transfers, without completing Form 4473 for these transactions. In these instances, the following procedures must be followed:

                  1. Transactions between licensees must be recorded in the bound book (Acquisition and Disposition or A&D) records of both licensees.

                  2. The FFL who is buying the firearm must furnish a certified copy of their license to the selling FFL prior to the transfer of any firearm. This certified copy may be emailed or faxed.

                  Background Check 101 - What is a Straw Buyer?
                  http://www.dailykos.com/...

                  "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

                  by LilithGardener on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 03:06:36 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  Re: (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        KVoimakas

        KV already mentioned Holly Adams.  Would you accept any other victim of gun violence?  

        When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

        by Patrick Costighan on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 08:25:48 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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