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View Diary: Do you want to help Scott Prouty? UPDATED (154 comments)

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  •  Just curious (33+ / 0-)

    How was he (or his videos) treated on kos?  I don't remember anything negative, but I miss a lot.

    BTW..he sounds like a great guy!

    ~*-:¦:-jennybravo-:¦:-*~

    by jennybravo on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 08:28:39 PM PDT

        •  not any more he doesn't (29+ / 0-)

          With good reason.

          Life is extremely cheap to the right-wing until a decision about it is either in the hands of a pregnant women or a Democratic president. -- Lia Matera

          by Mnemosyne on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 09:13:40 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

            •  He inaccurately portrayed what Romney (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              VClib, leonard145b, Wisper, nellgwen

              was talking about regarding the Chinese factory. THAT was his focus, not the 47% remarks. although nthat may have changed.

            •  "Romney Admits Using Chinese Slave Labor" (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              VClib, Texknight, raincrow, RUNDOWN

              That was actually his title to his first (I think) diary on this. Romeny did not do that. He was plainly describing how horrible the conditions in a factory he saw were.

              I love the guy - he did our country very, very good. But he started off wrong here.

              http://www.dailykos.com/...

              •  He has accurate transcript. We screwed up. Period. (39+ / 0-)

                Let's not make excuses.

                Scott posted the entire transcript of the 'China' video. In it, Romney describes the slave-labor conditions of the factory he was buying for Bain:

                As we were walking through this facility, seeing them work, the number of hours they worked per day, the pitance they earned, living in dormitories with little bathrooms at the end of maybe 10 rooms. And the rooms they have 12 girls per room. Three bunk beds on top of each other.
                That sounds pretty much like the diary's title, "Mitt Romney admits using Chinese slave labor @ Bain," no? Then Romney goes on to tell this staggering whopper of a lie:
                Around this factory was a huge fence with barbed wire and guard towers. And we said 'Gosh! I can't believe that you keep these girls in!' They said, 'No, no, no. This is to keep other people from coming in. Because people want so badly to come work in this factory that we have to keep them out. Or they will just come in here and start working and, and try and get compensated. So we, this is to keep people out.'
                So not only does Scott document his diary's title, with Romney himself describing the near slave-labor conditions, he then exhibits how incredibly callous and/or stupid Romney is.

                Good blogging, like journalism, isn't easy, and we don't always get it right. We screwed up in the other direction in the Anthony Weiner scandal. We screwed up with the Dan Rather AWOL memo, although in that case the 'hoax' presumably masked the truth that Bush did go AWOL. And we screwed up here.

                Let's apologize to Scott, thank him, and -- especially for those who HR'd him or even encouraged the mob-mentality against him (it's all on the record) -- let's *donate* to his fund! :-) Heck, even $10 would be a nice gesture, more if you've got it. http://www.gofundme.com/...   Sure, maybe we were 'right' by some fine parsing of the DailyKos site rules, and we had the right to be cautious, and he didn't reply much, and he posted a lot of short blurry videos, and we coulda been wrong, and yadayadayada, but we were *wrong*. Period. It doesn't take much to admit it, let's be big. Scott seems like a smart, good guy, and America should be grateful for him. (I hope he doesn't have too many battles ahead of him, from right-wing haters.)

                •  Good journalism is very difficult. (14+ / 0-)

                  There are some hard and fast rules for a reason. Dan Rather went down because he didn't check a source. The much more important and factual information in that program was lost in the uproar.

                  This is what journalist's, with a reputation like Corn's especially, do before they put something like this out.

                  Meet Scott Prouty, the 47 Percent Video Source  {Emphasis added.}

                  But as we neared publication, I said I had to know his name. Do you really need it? he asked. Yes, I replied, explaining I could not publish the stories without knowing his identity. I vowed I would keep it a secret.

                  I had waited until the final moments to press him on this. I realized there was a chance that he might decline to identify himself, and the story would die. He asked once more if it was necessary. I said it was and held my breath. There was a long silence. "Scott," he said. "Scott Prouty." Thank you, I replied. Then we moved on to other details.

                  I have a cousin who has written nationally at Village Voice and technical journals. We had a conversation about reactions to published articles which she had some experience with. Mine was as a FP writer for a small but respected blog, '05 - 07.

                  As carefully as you write something, the RW distortion machine will tear it apart and stomp it in to the ground. This clearly had potential to be Really Important. It needed to come out as verified as Corn had done it.

                  Making those calls is a gamble. As you pointed out, worse stuff has been done here. The system, the autoban and lack of a moderator who can be alerted to problems, sets up the problem. Even if those were fixed, we would still lose some.

                  "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

                  by Ginny in CO on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 02:35:39 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Corn explains in the article (10+ / 0-)

                    the other work he and the MoJo crew had done to verify the tapes. It had taken weeks. I also am speaking about the comments I made and the gist of what I read.  Because the diaries kept going up, various members went on to the new one and didn't necessarily see the nasty comments made after we left.

                    They happen to members. I know that from experience too.

                    I appreciate the donation idea very much.  Like 'a few' other Kossacks, I'm not in a place to do anything. A thank you and apology for the problems in his encounter here seem like the right thing to do. We have a petition program, it could be used for that.

                    "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

                    by Ginny in CO on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 02:52:51 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  i also think what happened here is something (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Paul1a

                      that has been a problem for a while now - and that is the "pile-on".  a poster makes a nasty allegation (unproven) and then friends or allies in thought of that poster start piling on,

                      the HOS meme is one of the most egregious actions i see around here.  some poster decides that another is not "legitimate" and makes the claim that everyone should simply HOS that person instead of letting others make up their own minds independently.

                      i very very rarely use the hr feature - and always explain why when i do.  when it becomes censorship because of a suspicion or dislike of another poster's position, writing style, idea, etc., then it is being used incorrectly.

                      scott got unfairly slammed and when looking at those who did the slamming, it is a familiar group of names throughout all the diaries.  that's a shame.  really a shame.  for the site, for those who drove the biggest political story of this election out of here. for themselves.

                      i hope all of us on this site learn from this.

                      EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                      by edrie on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 01:09:41 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I haven't been following the hide comments (0+ / 0-)

                        It was not a good experience and I am trying to get to the root causes instead of broad brushing all the people involved. The fact that this stuff goes on among members that are not brand new indicates there are other issues that made the difference here.

                        I'm usually in a fair number of diaries, including gun issues. I had been away mid Sept - early Jan while off internet service and heard when I got back that the rox/sux and gun control wars had been really ugly and a lot folks left.

                        I have not seen the issue you are talking about on HOS. It is supposed to be illegal. I also explain my HRs and  am back on really rare use. To me there is a clear difference between intervening in the posting of an unverified story by a stranger and not being civil in the comments to the point of inappropriate HRs. As I said, some comments may have been made after I and others left the diaries.

                        I am not sure how you can expect this site to vet a story like that in no time, when it took Corn 2 weeks, after Carter had been working on it. I was concerned about what I have explained at length in my comments.

                        My problem with the situation is that some people here are so consumed with making the site more notorious they don't think it is reasonable to avoid taking risks that could backfire. My ugly experience at the other blog included the nasty internal wars as well. They are a problem and have been reviewed, discussed, etc. ad nauseum. Unfortunately too many accept the incivility as part of being on a blog. Some may do it in person as well.

                        "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

                        by Ginny in CO on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 01:39:11 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  i have no problem with people giving hr's that (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          alice kleeman

                          are explained - what bothers me is the repeated hr'ing of the same person rather than making the case and letting others then step up to the plate to join or defend the poster.

                          i missed the original posting of these clips - but on viewing them without reading the comments made here, it is very blatantly romney speaking and his words are exactly what should be judged.  the clips show him talking to a group of people without knowing he is being recorded.  that is damning - not of the poster but for the speaker.

                          we, on this site, often cry for more "transparancy" - more cameras at protests (even though i have been one to state often that things are not always what they appear to be) - but that was mitt romney in multiple clips saying things that were damning.

                          that the poster was new was immaterial, imho.  that the poster took the risk to come to one of the largest political blogs that is, to post on a self-proclaimed democratic site should have been reason enough to view the clips and see if they were as they appeared - NOT to simply drive away the messenger.

                          whether or not the posting "backfired" isn't really a concern for me - it has been around long enough to weather multiple attacks and it - this site - is strong enough in voice to counter any attack made.

                          even the nephew didn't do "harm" in any real sense.  he brought out the best in people who offered to help - he made some money - he manipulated emotions - but he didn't cause people to do HARM - he showed this site to be filled with compassionate and caring people.  so, he was a liar, a fraud.

                          so what?  are we harmed by being compassionate?  by caring?  the only harm the nephew did, imho, was make some people hardened to caring for others in need.  that is really sad.

                          the internal wars can only be stopped by the community.  when enough people say "enough!", then they will stop.  when people don't engage those who try to pick fights, don't argue with ad homs and actually walk away from those who are seeking attention, the problems will lessen.

                          it is up to each of us to simply shut down the keyboard when others are being disruptive.  don't participate!  that is the real key.

                          just as i don't and won't engage with rude people in real life, i refuse to do so on a blog.  my blood pressure is much happier with me that way.

                          the last thing i am thinking today is that this is just a blog - an important one where i've made real life friends and online friends and filled with many people i really care about - but it is a blog.  it isn't the end of the world if someone thinks badly about "it" - it is what i personally think about this site that matters - and, right now, as i have for many years, it is worth consuming a great deal of my time and life.  if and when that changes (hopefully not), then i will be elsewhere and continue doing other things.

                          it isn't up to any of us to "protect" the blog from itself or "outsiders" (of which we all were, once - except markos, of course) - it is up to each of us to make it better and participate in a way that contributes to the successes the GOS has shown.  the GOS will survive, i am quite sure.  

                          EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                          by edrie on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 03:41:57 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  About the only reason I hide rate (0+ / 0-)

                        Is because someone calls for violence on another person.

                        Women create the entire labor force. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Sympathy is the strongest instinct in human nature. - Charles Darwin

                        by splashy on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 05:10:29 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  Agreed. Moderation in all things. (21+ / 0-)

                    Good blogging, like good journalism, is hard. No-one is saying we should have featured those anonymous videos on the front-page and certified their authenticity before there was proof. But it's not a boolean, dichotomous choice between Rec'ing versus Hide-Rating. If we're not sure, we do not need to accuse someone of (these are all direct quotes):

                    being a HOS troll, spamming, rat fucking [twice], crap, hoax, "Kindly to be fucking off now, spammer," bullshit, Go 'way, desperate for attention, a troll or an honest fool, not what we're looking for at Dkos, Big fat waste of everyone's time, really fucking annoying, etc.,
                    etc.

                    And lets give credit to the many Kossacks who got it right (like AWhitneyBrown), or who read it and simply didn't comment, or who cautioned us to be patient, and/or urged anneonymous670/Scott to take his video to a trusted mainstream media source -- which is what he did!

                    What I don't get are the Kossacks who HR'd him (or egged it on) and now are so defensive about it, rather than just owning-up that we screwed up, apologizing to Scott, praising and thanking him, maybe donating to his legal-fund to lead-by-example, and moving on.

                    We certainly had the best of intentions. Those of us who doubted had good reasons for it. Yes, process and procedure are important. But we screwed up. We're not perfect. Why is this so hard for some people to say? With a real apology, not a GOP non-apology. Without excuses. Without being defensive. Full stop. End-of-comment.

                    Even kos weighed in on this -- see his diary, here, ever-so-lovingly called "Crap community behavior": http://www.dailykos.com/...  E.g., selections:

                    For reasons that I cannot fathom, a bunch of you autobanned this user. Here is a goldmine of Mitt uncensored, and a bunch of you zapped him/her? I get that s/he was kind of spammy, but the content that was being posted was incredible. [...] Skepticism is always warranted, but skepticism doesn't mean you ban someone. It means you seek verification. That whistleblower/leaker never had the chance to try and verify. [...] "it's not fair to get mad at the community for trying to protect the site's reputation." I'll admit that I'm persuaded by that. It's hard trying to differentiate the The Nephew's from people who are genuinely well-meaning, but kind of clueless about community norms. [...] It's always good to be skeptical. And the line between being too tolerant of a genuine troll, and not tolerant enough for the well-meaning but blundering new user is impossible to define.
                    Moderation in all things... Aristotle was ahead of his time.  ;-)
                    •  I think I've mentioned Kos' comments on this. (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      edrie, sydneyluv

                      I think he missed the full picture as well. I do not condone nor do I make comments like those. Edrie points out above this is an ongoing problem, within diaries between Kossacks who should know better.

                      More than anything that reinforces my arguments on getting to the root causes of this particular situation. Those of us trying to get Scott to understand the issue of verifying were getting nowhere, unfortunately others weighed in with ugly negatives.

                      We clearly have a long standing problem with that kind of behavior. Maybe we need a rule that my mom identified about a neighbor's swearing. "John swears at things, not people." Swearing or using epithets towards a person or their ideas is not allowed in some sites. They often have a flag option to get a moderator's attention. To allow some venting of frustration, it could be applied to making them to the diarist or commenters. (I am pretty sure we would never eliminate the multitude of derogatory GOP comments ;).

                      I have suggested for some time that the comment in the box below the preview, to the left of the Post button, should say "IF this is true and kind and necessary, click Post:"  "If not, please take time to make changes below and Preview again. Or Cancel the comment."

                      There was plenty of ugly in the comments of too many towards Prouty, which may be why he did not pay attention to the concerns about vetting. I am not trying to make excuses for them. It is why I have been advocating our very excellent admin writers to craft a heartfelt apology and thank you, that the petition program should work to use for our signatures.

                      This was a key point for me in Kos' comment.

                      It's always good to be skeptical. And the line between being too tolerant of a genuine troll, and not tolerant enough for the well-meaning but blundering new user is impossible to define.
                      Given a very scientific upbringing, I reluctantly admit that the traits of my astrological sign fit me to a T.  Libra, balance. Moderation is a key component to achieving that. So is understanding what I think Gandhi said.

                      "Moderation in all things, includes moderation." ;-)

                      The nurse in me does not appreciate extreme sports. The animal lover abhors any abuse of them. I lived in Alaska 14 years, got to understand the Iditarod, had a vet who volunteered for the checkpoint exams, read articles from reporters who checked on the mushers year round and personally met a few of them. I'm still following #45 thru 54, who are slowly making their way to Nome. #54 has a minimum of 36 hours to go before he accepts the Red Lantern. Until then, I will go to the website at the time when I expect specific mushers to have reached their next checkpoint. {For anyone interested.
                       Iditarod site, vet section.  Mushing with P.R.I.D.E.} Time to check on #45.

                      A quote I mangled a bit when I wrote it in my bible:            
                        'Accept the illogical, irrational imperfection of the complex human soul.'

                      I am advocating that we go beyond acceptance here. Apologize graciously, thank profoundly, and reinvest ourselves in diminishing as many of the causes as possible. We certainly can be better than what happened with Scott.

                      "People, even more than things, have to be restored, renewed, revived, reclaimed and redeemed; never throw out anyone. " Audrey Hepburn "A Beautiful Woman"

                      by Ginny in CO on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 03:38:31 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  what a great post! and you cover so many things (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        alice kleeman, sydneyluv

                        that should be read over and over.

                        oh, and i'm a libran, too - with five planets in the house of libra AND the moon - talk about only seeing the middle as it ZOOMS past WHEEEEE!  

                        and, as for the idtarod - i have had samoyeds since 1970 and am currently waiting for a friend's girl to have puppies to have my next one.  (my last chance at my age - for a baby one - otherwise, they'll outlive me).

                        but, best of all you have said here - we all need to apologize graciously for our treatment of this young man - we owe him that.  if we all can't learn from our mistakes, we are bound to repeat them.

                        to scott, i am so very sorry for your treatment you received by our site.  i hope you'll not judge us all by our mistakes - and you'll join us and share your wisdom with us.

                        and, scott, thank you SO much for saving this nation from a sure disaster - and, yes, i DO think that your actions saved this country!

                        we are forever in your debt!

                        EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                        by edrie on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 04:07:21 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

              •  Chased off the site (8+ / 0-)

                By ill-advised HRs:

                This video is authentic. (0+ / 4-)
                Recommended by:
                Hidden by:
                absdoggy, Timaeus, IndieGuy, Nica24
                I'm the source and it's real.

                by anneonymous670 on Mon Sep 10, 2012 at 10:20:06 AM EDT

                [ Parent ]

                Paranoia strikes deep. Into your life it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid. You step out of line, the man come and take you away. - S. Stills

                by ask on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 06:03:04 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  So Wrong (0+ / 0-)

                No. Romney did describe the conditions as horrible. Then he described how he was told by the factory managers that those conditions were so attractive to the surrounding area that the barbed wire and security was to keep them out, stop them from looking for those taken jobs.

                Romney was describing a paradise - for the 1%ers he was talking with. Describing prison factories where the people are dying to get in, every ubercapitalist's dream.

                Even after the tape was made public, did Romney point out that his presidency would stop such abuses? That he'd protect US labor from descending to those conditions? Of course not.

                Even after all we've seen of this story, even after it was paired with Corn's extensive article documenting that factory that dovetailed with the compelete release of the 47% video, you're still getting it wrong. So wrong.

                "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

                by DocGonzo on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 10:20:05 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Exactly, edrie... (11+ / 0-)

              ...ironic that some on this site want a more inquisition style approach to matters.

              If you hate government, don't run for office in that government.

              by Bensdad on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 11:20:55 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I blame a lot of the suspicions of an alterior... (7+ / 0-)

              agenda for Scott's posting here, to his choice of screen names: "anneonymous670," the type of name that instantly fires off the ol' spidey-senses to possible skullduggery by spammers and trolls.

              But the thing is, essentially everyone, including Scott, started out with good, honest intentions. He was trying to inform us. And kossacks were only being vigilant; always on troll patrol.

              I have a sneakin' feeling that most everybody around here and even Scott himself have all come to kinda regret that particular name choice.              

              Ultimately, (and thankfully) everything worked out ok. As it turns out, the only way it could have worked out better would be is if Scott decided to give us kossacks another chance, and became a regular contributor here.

              "That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history." ~ Aldous Huxley

              by markthshark on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 04:10:37 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  what is (4+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Wisper, 3goldens, elwior, Paul1a

                an "alterior agenda"?

                Life is extremely cheap to the right-wing until a decision about it is either in the hands of a pregnant women or a Democratic president. -- Lia Matera

                by Mnemosyne on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 08:32:54 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Do you have a problem with the phrase? (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Eyesbright

                  Or are you saying Scott's screen name isn't similar to the dozens of trolls and spammers joining Dkos every month?

                  If so, you should meander over to Trix's "Sunday Talk" feature every Saturday night, and read Bruinkid's (I think) comment enumerating the newly-joined members for that particular week.

                  All but a few of the new members's screen names are comprised of a random word immediately followed by 2, 3 or 4 numbers. Bruinkid always includes the qualifier: "I'm pretty sure most of them are spambots.

                  "That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history." ~ Aldous Huxley

                  by markthshark on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 09:19:55 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  It's your agenda, except that you keep it a (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  markthshark

                  dark dirty secret. ^_^ Like using tax cuts, small government, and States' Rights as Dog Whistles for cutting social programs and any other measures for hurting Blacks. Or whatever jollies trolls get.

                  Derivation: Portmanteau of alternate ulterior-motivated agenda.

                  As Lewis Carroll himself explained about the origin of portmanteau words (words containing parts of two or more others, like objects in a suitcase, which is what a portmanteau was in his time),

                  Humpty-Dumpty's theory, of two meanings packed into one word like a portmanteau, seems to me the right explanation for all.

                  For instance, take the two words "fuming" and "furious." Make up your mind that you will say both words, but leave it unsettled which you will say first. Now open your mouth and speak. If your thoughts incline ever so little towards " fuming," you will say "fuming-furious;" if they turn, by even a hair's breadth, towards "furious," you will say "furious-fuming;" but if you have the rarest of gifts, a perfectly balanced mind, you will say "frumious."

                  Supposing that, when Pistol uttered the well-known words--

                  "Under which king, Bezonian? Speak or die!"

                  Justice Shallow had felt certain that it was either William or Richard, but had not been able to settle which, so that he could not possibly say either name before the other, can it be doubted that, rather than die, he would have gasped out "Rilchiam!"

                  Preface to The Hunting of the Snark

                  Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

                  by Mokurai on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 09:26:15 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Lol... I wasn't going all "Carroll..." (0+ / 0-)

                    I misspelled the word and hit the send button before I realized it. But I kinda figured most people would know what I was talking about.

                    Thanks for the explanation of "Portmanteau" though. I've been known to do it a time or two before but never realized there was an actual word for doing it outside of perhaps, "idiosyncrasy" or "foible."

                    Learn something new everyday. lol

                    "That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history." ~ Aldous Huxley

                    by markthshark on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 05:27:17 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

              •  Really? (7+ / 0-)

                So him coming here in middle of the most crucial stretch of election season with a GOLDMINE of raw actual footage that you could watch with YOUR OWN EYES with a single click and then being treated like a lying trolling sack of shit right up until, and slightly after, his account was out-and-out BANNED....  

                ....was really partly his fault.  

                Because of his choice of name.

                I have a sneakin' feeling that most everybody around here and even Scott himself have all come to kinda regret that particular name choice.    

                I have a sneaking suspicion that anyone on Daily Kos has forfeited the right to decide what Scott Prouty thinks.

                Красота спасет мир --F. Dostoevsky

                by Wisper on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 08:50:25 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Unfortunately, you're probably right about this... (0+ / 0-)
                  I have a sneaking suspicion that anyone on Daily Kos has forfeited the right to decide what Scott Prouty thinks.
                  But this is for Scott to decide. If he decides we're worthy we should give him a hero's welcome back.

                  And this...  

                  So him coming here in middle of the most crucial stretch of election season with a GOLDMINE of raw actual footage that you could watch with YOUR OWN EYES with a single click and then being treated like a lying trolling sack of shit right up until, and slightly after, his account was out-and-out BANNED....  

                  ....was really partly his fault.  

                  First off, for the record: I had no problem with Scott's postings whatsoever.

                  And, I never said it was his fault. How could it be? He had no concept how wary, and sometimes even presumptuous kossacks can be these days.

                  So, what else do you have to whine about?

                  It's getting old.

                  "That men do not learn very much from the lessons of history is the most important of all the lessons of history." ~ Aldous Huxley

                  by markthshark on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 09:47:42 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  I neither HR'ed him or rec'd him because (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              DBoon, 3goldens

              I had no way of knowing whether he was legit or not and since he did not respond to comments for quite some time, I do understand the concerns of those who did HR him.

              But IMO it was entirely Markos' failure to vet him that was responsible for his treatment here. The average Kossack has no access to the poster's ID, email address, etc. Markos does have access to information about each of us and he could have contacted anneonymous670 and checked out his story. As far as I know, he did not and instead bitched at those who HR'ed Scott - after Mother Jones released the story. You will notice that David Corn did not just rush to publish the story before he checked out the guy pretty well - which is exactly what any reasonable journalist would do - so I do not understand why anyone should expect us to just accept what an anonymous source says without checking it out.

              Also, Scott made it pretty clear on The Ed Show the other night that David Corn already had the scoop and he, Scott, wanted to release it to the largest possible audience. He did not even mention his diary on DK. If I am understanding the time line correctly, he had talked with Corn before his diary here was published.

              What a hero Scott is - and he appears to be a delightful person. I wish him well.

              You can't scare me, I'm sticking to the Union - Woody Guthrie

              by sewaneepat on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 07:43:49 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Some type of alert system (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sewaneepat, Paul1a

                for these potentially explosive stories would be helpful. Markos can't be everywhere. Also a quick and easy link for us to send a new user to explain the proper way to post, etc.

              •  um.... i don't think markos spends 24/7 on this (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                sewaneepat, Paul1a

                site minding the pie fights.  the reason he comes in blasting when he is dragged into them is most likely due to his being dragged into them.

                this is equivalent to saying the president is responsible for every hangnail, every stubbed toe in the universe because he is president and that makes him responsible for every single thing that happens at any second of the day anywhere it happens.

                we have a group/hive mind problem here.  when certain folk start to criticize and are online at the same time, they friggin gang up on the target that is being "disagreed with" or judged.

                markos has talked about making the mojo thing go away - ratings would be a good second to make disappear.  and the consequences for misusing hr's would be nice, too.

                this isn't a private playground where a small group should be able to drive others out.  if there is to be an autoban, it needs to be triggered by a wider selection of users - and not just the same small group of hall monitors.

                EdriesShop Is it kind? is it true? is it necessary?

                by edrie on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 01:19:12 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  If you look at the poll (0+ / 0-)

              Six people agreed with Mitt.

              Probably some rightie member critics, you see them in the labor section quite a bit.

              In a capitalist democracy - every dollar is a "vote" ... spend wisely ...

              by RUNDOWN on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 10:59:27 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  I would not describe how he was (34+ / 0-)

        treated here as "caution"   He was painted as posting a conspiracy theory diary and the credibility of his video was
        attached without basis.   I call that a knee-jerk reaction
        and not "caution"

      •  It was the OKeefe fear factor. We thought (0+ / 0-)

        OKeefe was telling us what we wanted to hear.

        guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

        by 88kathy on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 10:43:14 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  he was HR'd (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      raincrow

      because he posted videos and didn't provide the details.

      He also never answered pm's and comments posted in the threads.

      This was because of the right was doing of posting videos out of context.

      This could have actually been avoided if he sent the videos in one of the editors here.

      "The only person sure of himself is the man who wishes to leave things as they are, and he dreams of an impossibility" -George M. Wrong.

      by statsone on Thu Mar 14, 2013 at 09:38:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  He posted the videos one at a time and looked like (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Bill W, DBoon

        a spammer.  It appeared he was flooding the Recent Diary list.  At the same time, people had noticed all the new bot-IDs signing up (usually with a number in the post) and some of us were speculating that was how the site would be rendered useless; all those bots posting 50 diaries an hour.

        He didn't answer numerous requests to delete the diaries and post all the clips in one big diary.

        He didn't answer any questions about the provenance, just kept saying they were sent to the press and this was going to be big.

        Well, he was right.  It was going to be big. But it took another month because Corn took his time vetting them.  AS HE SHOULD.  What was posted here was not obviously "big" because the video was blurred, so they were essentially audio clips.

        And don't forget the same clips were posted elsewhere under the name Rachel Maddow.  ANd Maddow had to deny her show had anything to do with them.  So that looked like  this person was a troublemaker.

        So... blurry clips that sounded like Romney, no provenance, no proof, diarist ignores reasonable requests?  Sure, it's easy to say now "Oh, we treated him terribly."  But that's silly.  Nobody had ANY WAY of knowing they were legit given what we were given.

        •  Why so defensive? (14+ / 0-)

          Wow, talk about defensive! I see four comments from you making excuses, and not one apologizing to Scott and praising him for single-handedly playing such a huge, courageous and productive role, in the $1 billion US Presidential election. You make excuse after excuse:
          http://www.dailykos.com/... http://www.dailykos.com/... http://www.dailykos.com/... http://www.dailykos.com/...

          Yes, there were a few dozen Kossacks who attacked Scott/annonemous670's posts here, or exulted when he was 'Bojoed'. That's not very many people. There are hundreds of thousands of Kossacks, especially active in the lead-up to a presidential election. Most Kossacks, among the thousands who saw those video diaries, did not pile on him.

          Kos has already spoken on this, how annoyed he was that DailyKos blew it, but acknowledging the tradeoffs involved: http://www.dailykos.com/...  I provided excerpts and some more thoughts in my comments below, here: http://www.dailykos.com/...

          For those who got it wrong: Be a man, be a woman, be an adult. No-one is asking you to 'wear a dunce cap'. Just apologize to Scott, and thank him. Stop making excuses.

          Can you afford even $10 (or more) as thanks or for his legal-defense fund? Add a note of thanks from DailyKos, if you can.

          (I did donate, putting my $ where my mouth is.)

          •  That is so fucking disingenuous of you (0+ / 0-)

            Why am I so defensive?  Because I got a hostile private mail from you accusing me of leading the HR parade, that's why.  I led NOTHING.  Now you sit here and intone Shame, Shame on those who care about this site not being ratcfucked.

            And for the record, Kos came off that tirade and acknowledged that those putting the brakes on the original posts were RIGHT TO DO SO.

            But do feel free to continue your Superior Dance.

            I also donated to Prouty's legal fund, because he did indeed do our nation a service.  But you know what?  I would not do ANYTHING DIFFERENT than I did beforehand if we get another set up blurry vidclips and an unresponsive poster who looks like a troublemaker.

            •  You write odious words. Let's publish our PMs (0+ / 0-)

              as I already asked you -- and you refused (so I honored your request, and didn't even mention it). I ask you again. We'll let readers decide if what I wrote you was a "hostile" email, as you claim, and let them describe your response to me.

              (A small tip for when you write others: you'll find it more effective to avoid using swear words and shouting-caps, they're not nice.)

              My other comments here stand; I'm done with this topic and diary.

              Best wishes.

        •  You're right. (0+ / 0-)

          I didn't hide-rate the guy, and I think those that did probably shouldn't have, but I did say that the video needed to be verified before we go crazy about it.  
          In a way, it's like the Monica Lewinsky story all over again.  Daily Kos was playing the role of the Drudge Report, and David Corn was playing the role of Michael Isikoff.

        •  The "bots" (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          elwior

          have never tried to post comments, as far as I know, based on what the dkos staff have said numerous times.

          Another case of overreacting based on objective facts, yes, but facts that really don't mean much in context.

           We need to quit doing that.

          If you spent much time in the late night threads, there were always jokes from all the well known established Kossacks (like gchaucer02) that a number in a user id doesn't necessarily imply bottitude. Look at all the people who rec'd this diary. Lots of numbers there.

          We need to stop judging individuals based on "numbers." The bot names have had very specific patterns (that we also noticed and joked around about-- and still do).  This one didn't.

          As for this.

          But that's silly.  Nobody had ANY WAY of knowing they were legit given what we were given.
          I had no way of knowing they were legit. But I didn't know they were illegitimate either.

          No one knew for sure they were illegitimate. (If they knew that, they were very wrong. )

          But pastry was tossed hard and fast.

          That's a big problem.

          © grover


          So if you get hit by a bus tonight, would you be satisfied with how you spent today, your last day on earth? Live like tomorrow is never guaranteed, because it's not. -- Me.

          by grover on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 12:56:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Bots then and now (0+ / 0-)

            The bots were new at the time, and nobody knew if they were gearing up for something or just taking up space.  The bot jokes came later.  
            We knew O'Keefe ran sting operations.  Could the video be another one by someone else?

            You're right... we didn't know.  And the diarist wasn't communicating.  At all.  And spamming with diary after diary after diary in a very short time.

            And posting under the name Rachel Maddow on another site.

            All very odd behavior for someone with legit video.  The reactions really weren't that surprising given all that context together.

            Feelings were high.  Easy to criticize with 20/20 hindsight, but we didn't have it then.  

    •  I think people were extremely suspicious (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Paul1a, Heart of the Rockies, 88kathy

      about being pwned at a very sensitive stage of the election -- a flurry of amateurish diaries on one day, extremely provocative video clips without substantiation, author claims to have captured the video but was very mysterious about it, etc., etc., etc.

      Most commenters were cautiously welcoming, tried to counsel a n00b to consolidate his several diaries, etc. But the usual suspects spewed the usual donuts, declared him HOS, etc., etc. It was highly unattractive, but all of that changed a week later when David Corn published in Mother Jones.

      YES WE DID -- AGAIN. FOUR MORE YEARS.

      by raincrow on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 05:06:15 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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