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View Diary: Rape trial defense: 'She didn't affirmatively say no.' Defendant: She 'was like a dead body.' (495 comments)

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  •  Consent while drunk (34+ / 0-)

    I'm not sure what the rules are for getting someone drunk and/or stoned and/or on dape rape drugs are, and then having sex with them.  Here in the Northeast, state law frowns on that.  In fact, the presence of that much alcohol (does Ohio have a dramshop law?) tends to support the theory that she was intentionally liquored up with intent to rape her.

    And if anyone thinks we're being too harsh or too politically correct, I'll remind them that rape, including the way it came down in the Steubenville instance, is a violent crime, not a sexual issue at all.

    •  No, you are not being too harsh as I am just (7+ / 0-)

      as harsh if not more so.  For example, here are my rules are and they are pretty standard where I am coming from.  No "playing" if they have had alcohol or recreational drugs that day even if it has been over 10 hours since then.  Due to the fact that endorphins are a drug once we start with the fun there will be no going beyond pre-arranged limits/restrictions no matter how much they ask or even beg to (called "renegotiating the scene" which is a big no-no for a very good reason) and losing the ability to communicate (which is often a good thing) means it is time to wrap everything up.

      You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

      by Throw The Bums Out on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 01:32:12 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Yup. ANd one of the first parts of (6+ / 0-)

        "Safe, Sane and Consensual" in the kink community is that neither party--Dom/me or sub--be impaired by alcohol and drugs.  Someone who takes advantahe of a sub deep in sub space (which does not mean drunk or drugged, just riding an endorphin high) will find him or herself shunned by his fellow kinksters.  ESPECIALLY if they violate the sub's ahrd limits (which are spelled out in advance).

        The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

        by irishwitch on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 04:22:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Exactly. Yet in the vanilla world apparently (4+ / 0-)

          it is considered acceptable in some cases to get someone intoxicated on drink or drugs to convince them to do something they wouldn't otherwise do and they want to call us messed up?

          You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

          by Throw The Bums Out on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 04:39:56 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Sadly, according to studies, (8+ / 0-)

            from the Nixon era (his commission or pern) to the more recent years,  when college students are given checklists of behavior, males will admit to doing things that match the definition of rape under the law, then say no having raped. Females will check things being done to them that are rape, but will say they have never been raped. They literally don't know what rape really is--especially when it's date rape which doesn't involve a weapon.

            We need to do a MUCH better job of discussing rape in sex ed--spelling it out in clear and graphic terms.  

            Kink world a tually teaches  newbies what is accep[table and what isn't--and will turn its back on soemone who makes a habit of breaking the rules. Of course, we actually negotiate scenes. Maybe it would be a good idea for the vanilla world to start doing so.

            The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

            by irishwitch on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 05:03:49 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Yes, if that kind of negotiation/discussions (5+ / 0-)

              was expected in the vanilla world as well there would be a hell of alot less problems including even plain old morning after regrets.  But yes, there needs to be far more coverage of rape in sex ed classes and possibly even making the laws far more clear.  I would go so far as to say that if you really want to get away from rape culture then the kink world's standards of consent, honest communication, and trust should be adopted by the vanilla world as well.

              You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

              by Throw The Bums Out on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 05:27:53 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Had to recc this comment, however, (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              liberaldregs

              I'm cracking up at the term "Vanilla." Is non-BDSM sex really so uninteresting?

              It can actually be fun! Vanilla with sprinkles and even chocolate fudge.

              "Jersey_Boy" was taken.

              by New Jersey Boy on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 07:01:44 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  It can be once you understand just how intense (0+ / 0-)

                those endorphin rushes/highs (called subspace) can get.  I am talking so intense that you may need to just hold your partner in your arms for an hour before it is safe for him/her to even walk because they are flying so high.  Go ask a BASE jumper if regular old roller coaster is so uninteresting sometime.

                You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

                by Throw The Bums Out on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 09:48:39 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  You've missed the point (0+ / 0-)

          These folks have their own lifestyle, "Unsafe, Insane, and Non-consensual."  And they substitute violence for sex.  Kinda like "Clockwork Orange", a movie that the Steubenville football cult seems to think is an instructional video, not a story of a dystopian future.

    •  Getting Girls Drunk is a Common Technique (36+ / 0-)

      Years ago when I was a Freshman in college, I was at a Frat part with some friends. I didn't drink anything but there was a huge platter of fruit on the table. I kept helping myself to the fruit. After a while I started filling woozy and thought maybe I was dehydrated because it was very warm so I had some more fruit and started feeling dizzy.

      Luckily somebody clued me in that the fruit had been soaked in vodka. Apparently this was a favorite trick of Fraternities who knew that a lot of us girls wouldn't drink but hoped we won't realize that the fruit was spiked with colorless, flavorless alcohol. Since I had never drunk before, I had no frame of reference and didn't realize that I was getting drunk.  I still shudder to think what would have happened if I had kept eating that fruit and passed out.

      •  Yup. (11+ / 0-)

        There was a frat at my college that left a naked woman passed out on their front lawn, so everybody could see their "trophy" the next morning.

        "YOPP!" --Horton Hears a Who

        by Reepicheep on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 03:15:27 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  ANd jello shooters. (10+ / 0-)

        Heavily l;aced with vodka.

        The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

        by irishwitch on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 04:23:31 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Vodka is 'flavorless'? (0+ / 0-)

        News to me. Alcohol itself has a flavor, you know...tastes bitter, like poison. I can't imagine ever failing to notice that there is something seriously wrong with the fruit in that situation.

        I also can't imagine anyone doing that in the hopes of tricking someone. Vodka-soaked fruit is usually a byproduct of flavoring the vodka, put out for those who want to get drunk fast because it lets you swallow a large amount of alcohol quickly (as long as you don't bite into it. Ugh.)

        "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

        by kyril on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 06:56:54 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  A lot of new college student have never had (6+ / 0-)

          alcohol before they arrive at college.  You can be damned sure this is being done on purpose.  The same stories at every single college about watching out for spiked drinks.  The sugary flavors do hide the alcohol flavor, too.

          The fruit is a new one on me, though.

          •  You don't have to know what alcohol tastes like (0+ / 0-)

            to notice that your fruit has a horrible overwhelming bitter poison death flavor.

            I'm not talking about a mildly spiked punch, here...it is possible to make a punch dilute enough and sweet enough that it doesn't taste 'wrong', especially if you go heavy on the pineapple juice. But fruit soaked in liquor always tastes horrifying. It's like biting into a shot of vodka. (shudders)

            "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

            by kyril on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 11:52:45 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Vodka injected into oranges or (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              LSophia, madhaus

              watermelon tastes like the fruit. Maybe Duke does it better.

              I'm asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about real change in Washington ... *I'm asking you to believe in yours.* Barack Obama

              by samddobermann on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 09:27:29 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Have you, personally, ever sampled vodka-infused (0+ / 0-)

              fruit?

              I have had plenty of alcoholic drinks in my college days that did not taste of alcohol that I knew were alcoholic.  Part of the issue is that most men didn't seem to like the sweet, fruity drinks that I've seen many women order.

              Good vodka does not taste bitter.  It barely tastes like anything at all.  If you are tasting alcohol as bitter, you are either drinking very low quality vodka or you may be some form of supertaster for alcohol and your experience is quite atypical.

              •  I have. (0+ / 0-)

                It's revolting. Even worse than Sangria fruit, which is bad enough.

                On the other hand, it's possible to get drunk on it relatively quickly with minimal pain if I swallow the pieces whole.

                Good vodka does not taste bitter.
                "Bitter" may not be the correct word; I sometimes have trouble communicating what things taste like. It tastes like burning poison death. It's all I can do to hold back my vomit reflex long enough to swallow a shot. And all vodka pretty much tastes the same, from bottom shelf to top; it's the least offensive liquor (doesn't have any other major flavors on top of the alcohol), but it still tastes like alcohol.

                I know I'm sensitive to taste, but it's a matter of degree; if I can taste something strongly, other people will notice a moderate flavor. It's literally inconceivable to me that anyone who's not already drunk could possibly miss the taste of alcohol at any concentration higher than about 5%. It's like missing that your dinner was doused in bleach.

                "Let’s just move on, treat everybody with firmness, fairness, dignity, compassion and respect. Let’s be Marines." - Sgt. Maj Michael Barrett on DADT repeal

                by kyril on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 12:53:56 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  That's the problem. What is inconceivable to you (0+ / 0-)

                  does not mean that it is not true for others.  You're going to have to stop arguing from experience when it's absolutely clear your reaction to alcohol is unusually sensitive.

                  Most people do not taste "burning poison death" when they consume alcohol.  Vodka in particular is particularly flavorless to most people.  Look at the sheer number of women who have been rendered fairly drunk by spiked punch etc at frat parties.  If they have no experience with what being drunk is like, and they don't have experience with how drinks with vs without alcohol should taste, how would they know?

                  btw my daughter, who is 17, was at a hotel function with me and ordered a "pina colada" from the bar, fully expecting to be served a virgin (alcohol-free) drink.  She appears to be about 20, therefore someone who should be carded.  The bartender handed her a rum-laden drink.  She sipped it and took me aside, "Mom, I think my drink has alcohol in it."  I tried it.  It did.  We were both surprised the bartender had not asked her for ID, but there was almost nobody under 25 at the gathering.

                  Rum is more noticeable than vodka, though, and she knows what the drink would taste like without it.  She did choose to finish it, and she knew the bartender would be in all sorts of trouble if he found out how old she actually was.

                  I mention this story to show that yes, my daughter noticed the taste because it was slightly different, but not because it was bad.  Had she never had a virgin pina colada, though, she would have no idea the flavor was "wrong."  You're going to have to get out of your head on this one.

        •  Try everclear or even medical/reagent grade (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LSophia, samddobermann

          ethyl alcohol.  Just be very careful and dilute it with water first.

          You have watched Faux News, now lose 2d10 SAN.

          by Throw The Bums Out on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 10:56:27 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  I have tasted alcoholic drinks (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          LSophia, samddobermann

          That tasted like plain old fruit punch -- and the key ingredient isn't vodka, but clear flavorless grain alcohol...190 proof.

          I guarantee that  3 punch cups of that will knock you flat. The guys who made it called it "jungle juice."

      •  vodka is injected into the fruit (0+ / 0-)

        Lots of Frat parties do it, sometimes to get around no drinks on campus outdoors.

        I'm asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about real change in Washington ... *I'm asking you to believe in yours.* Barack Obama

        by samddobermann on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 09:22:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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