Skip to main content

View Diary: Shocking News: Men Rebut Woman's Mansplaining Complaint (93 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  and the nonsense about nonsense (0+ / 0-)

    continues.

    •  yeah, because misogyny and the complete (17+ / 0-)

      inability of people to stand in solidarity, when we know the benefit of the doubt should always go to those in the dominant power group, is such a load of nonsense that we should waste our time with.

      Sorry to bother you. Move on. Nothing to see here.

      •  some people (0+ / 0-)

        have this amazing psychic ability to foresee sexism, misogyny, "mansplaining" and other victimizations before they even occur and in that particular case even when they don't occur. They are so wrapped up in whatever tiny issue they care about, that it is inconceivable to them that others might have different interests or god forbid different emphasis.

        Writing a boring and semi-rude rant on some obscure (not used by a vast majority of Office users) topic to someone who clearly doesn't have the time to deal with all but the most interesting correspondence, and expecting an informative and polite response is the height of self-absorption. And then a mountain is made of that.

        Clearly that is the social justice issue for the ages.

          •  the tiny issue (0+ / 0-)

            was the topic of the previous diary's email correspondence... You have a reading comprehension issue. It was quite obvious what the "tiny issue" was from the context of my comment. You deliberately misread it. Good for you!

          •  rather (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            cryonaut

            "a very busy person's curt and glossing-over-the-point response to a semi-rude ranting email" is a "tiny issue".

            i still don't see how pogue being short and missing the point of the original question is sexism merely because he's a man and the diarist was a woman.

            i've gotten the same sort of response out of female supervisors/muckety-mucks at my job, where i lay out a problem in detail and i get a one-line response from a busy woman that shows that she didn't even read the email enough to sufficiently get the point. is that sexism too, because she's not showing sufficient fealty to my position? at least in my case the original email doesn't tell her that job isn't 'real work'.

            anyone born after the McDLT has no business stomping around acting punk rock

            by chopper on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 08:51:06 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  "expecting an informative and polite response is (11+ / 0-)

          the height of self-absorption"

          This is supposed to the normal expectation when writing to someone who is paid to be informed.

          I hope you don't have any daughters.

          •  no (0+ / 0-)

            it's the normal expectation when writing to someone who is paid to respond to those sort of things. pogue is not being paid to answer every email he gets, and i'm sure he gets a ton of them anyways.

            i can send paul krugman as many emails as i want to, i don't expect him to respond to them, much less in a lot of detail. and certainly if from the get-go i tell him that what he does isn't 'real work' i shouldn't expect much of anything at all in return. i wouldn't if i were him and i got that sort of email from a stranger.

            anyone born after the McDLT has no business stomping around acting punk rock

            by chopper on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 08:54:43 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  If it has a negative effect on 50% of humans, (14+ / 0-)

          it's not a "tiny issue"/

          The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

          by irishwitch on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 08:12:20 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  yes (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            AaronInSanDiego

            the lack of keyboard mapping shortcuts to the Office menus has a serious negative effect on 50% of humans. I gotcha.

            •  because, yeah, that was her issue with how he (11+ / 0-)

              responded to her.

              Clearly, you have the protocol down. Thank you for your model participation.

              •  as someone who (0+ / 0-)

                has had a good fill of user tech support, I pray I never have to run into users like you. God forbid I accidentally mansplain something I have no expertise or interest in. Then I'd forever be known as that sexist IT guy.

                The only mistake that guy made was to respond to her rant. There was no reason to respond but he was too nice.

                •  since I used to do IT support, I am well aware (12+ / 0-)

                  of how to provide responses to people without being condescending.

                  I know he Someone Important because he's a man writing for a magazine! the very idea that we should be thankful if he responds to us, regardless of how much of an asshat he is, is absurd.

                  What is clear from that email exchange is that she has more experience with the software than he has.

                  Since he can pick and choose who he responds to, he could have chosen not to respond. Since he did respond, he could have been gracious about it and acknowledged that she may have had some points that he wasn't aware of.

                  Instead he tried to school her as if she were a newbie user. Worse, he didn't actually give her lessons on the issues she was bringing up.

                  Thank you for participating in tonight's exercise of highlighting the best executors of the Mainsplaining Protocol.

                  Please, keep 'splainin' me. My pretty little girl-head doesn't get it yet.

                  •  if a user (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    RainyDay

                    contacts me with a long rant about the software I deal with and support, and then start it with a wish that more people like the user worked in my damn job, because obviously only people like her do the real work and know all the features of the software... I would put that arrogant user on a personal blacklist. I certainly would not try to address anything in the rant.

              •  her issue (0+ / 0-)

                with how pogue responded to her was that he was curt and glossed over her problem in his response. she sees that as sexism merely because 'he could tell by my name that i'm a woman'.

                others are disagreeing, because she was rude in the first place and shouldn't have expected a respectful reply, and that pogue is a busy person who wouldn't even be expected to respond in detail anyways.

                you seem to think believing the latter means you don't care at all about sexism. apparently if we're not as sufficiently outraged as you are about this incident we're enemies of feminism, and if we don't agree with you then we are totes pretending that sexism isn't a problem anywhere.

                this is turning into comedy at this point.

                anyone born after the McDLT has no business stomping around acting punk rock

                by chopper on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 06:44:26 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  you completely miss my point. it's not about being (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  FogCityJohn

                  outraged at the tech writer.

                  it's about being in solidarity from someone of an oppressed class who is expressing that she thinks she just experienced a bit of that oppression.

                  why berate her and call her rude? people are interpreting her as rude, when I don't think her original email was intended to be rude. but, she is problematic when she interprets his writing as sexist. he gets the benefit of the doubt and she doesn't.

                  all the focus seems to be on her wording of "real work" rather than her feelings about how he responded to her. What I read in "real work" was, those of us who use this software intensely for our job and don't just spend a few hours with it for the sake of a review. She wasn't berating him, she was differentiating their perspectives on the software.

                  Worse, because everyone decided that she was rude, she is then told she should be appreciative that he responded to her at all.

                  First, I'm sure he doesn't respond to every email. So, why choose the one from the secretary and then turn around and school her. Particularly, when he's wrong about the points she's making. he could have easily said, "you have some good points, I wasn't reviewing it from that kind of user's point of view." Or he could have answered someone else's email.

                  When it comes to fighting oppression, one must always stand with the person in the oppressed group. It is the norm in a system of oppression for the one in the dominant group to always be afforded the benefit of the doubt and to perpetuate oppression by then knocking down the person who dares to call anything out.

                  All people accomplish when they nit pick a particular cry of mansplaining is to perpetuate an atmosphere where people are afraid to speak out.

                  In the big scheme of things, what difference does it make if one can look for ways in which the tech writer may not have been being sexist? Not one iota.

                  Go ahead and tell me how we have to be concerned about all the false accusations that will arise. Go ahead.....

                  •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                    it's about being in solidarity from someone of an oppressed class who is expressing that she thinks she just experienced a bit of that oppression.

                    sorry, but just because someone thinks someone's statement is insulting or offensive doesn't mean i'm going to automatically join that person.

                    likewise i don't automatically assume any random person's statement is anti-semitic just because a fellow jew says so. instead i actually look at what was written and decide for myself. but we're an oppressed class! yeah, that doesn't make anybody's accusations automatically genuine.

                    you seem to think that 'fighting oppression' means turning your critical-thinking skills off and just going with the crowd. i think that's a terrible way of fixing problems.

                    anyone born after the McDLT has no business stomping around acting punk rock

                    by chopper on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 09:30:03 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  also (0+ / 0-)

                    why berate her and call her rude? people are interpreting her as rude, when I don't think her original email was intended to be rude. but, she is problematic when she interprets his writing as sexist. he gets the benefit of the doubt and she doesn't.

                    because i think her original email was rude. you don't think so, but i do. that's called 'a difference of opinion'.

                    and if you start out rude to someone, you can't expect their response to be detailed and thoughtful. likewise, i see him glossing over her email and missing the point she was trying to make. that certainly makes him seem a bit dense, but it doesn't automatically become sexism just because she's a woman any more than it would automatically be racism if she were african-american.

                    anyone born after the McDLT has no business stomping around acting punk rock

                    by chopper on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 09:40:58 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  thank you for 'splaining', yet again (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      LaEscapee, FogCityJohn

                      polite is a tool of the upper classes. keeps everybody in check.

                      She wasn't rude. She was distinguishing her level of use of the software from his and then issuing complaints about how the software got worse for people who use it at her level.

                      But, since she wasn't all deferent and bolstering of his ego and careful to express appreciation for him before she handed out her criticisms, she was rude.

                      thank you for being another great model of how the Protocol works.

                      And, no, I don't turn off my critical thinking skills. I apply them in a more in-depth way than a surface critique of an interaction as though it is not in the context of an entire culture.

                      I have not advocated that we all go around affirming that he mansplained. I have simply advocated that it serves no purpose to pick apart her complaint of her experience, other than to ensure that people feel utterly uncomfortable and are deterred from making complaints in the future.

                      Women experience mansplaining 24/7. We don't report every experience. Sometimes, we may experience it and others can't see it in that particular example. So what. Leave her alone. She didn't hurt anyone. (Somehow, I don't think Mr. Tech Writer is off at his therapist traumatized over her emails.) Why the vigilant need to make sure she understands that you don't agree that it was a good enough example? What's the fear behind needing to pounce on that? And which societal dynamics does your pouncing serve? I submit that it serves the embedded system of misogyny.

                      When your fellow Jews experience anti-semitism and you don't see it, your people might be best served by your silence. The oppressive class of non-Jews is not going to be damaged by a false accusation here or there. If you feel that your comrade is doing your people a disservice, you might try speaking to that person in private, rather than publicly berating. Publicly berating and disagreeing only serves to divide your solidarity and strengthen the oppressors.

                      But then, I'm just a woman who gives up her critical thinking when I'm so emotionally overwrought by my hyper-sensitive, and clearly wrong, mansplaining radar. So, my insights on these things are probably not to be considered valid. You probably should make sure to publicly rebut every point I make, just so the universe won't be living with an unanswered false assessment. that would be the real injustice.

                      •  see (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        ChurchofBruce, cryonaut
                        When your fellow Jews experience anti-semitism and you don't see it, your people might be best served by your silence.
                        not at all. it doesn't help when people get away with accusing anyone of anti-semitism for any reason they can think of. that isn't a good thing.

                        but thank you for goy-splaining it all to me. good to know you're here to tell me the 'protocol'. how else should us jews act?

                        anyone born after the McDLT has no business stomping around acting punk rock

                        by chopper on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 11:35:12 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                      •  also (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        ChurchofBruce, cryonaut
                        The oppressive class of non-Jews is not going to be damaged by a false accusation here or there. If you feel that your comrade is doing your people a disservice, you might try speaking to that person in private, rather than publicly berating. Publicly berating and disagreeing only serves to divide your solidarity and strengthen the oppressors.
                        'the oppressive class of non-jews' may not be harmed much by false accusations of anti-semitism, but it sure as shit doesn't help the jews. it only weakens the case to be made when actual anti-semitism exists. you even see it here, when there's a diary critical of israel's policies and everyone is all 'oh noes, someone's going to call me an anti-semite LOL'.

                        when someone coughs up a false accusation of anti-semitism, it isn't my job as a jew to automatically stand by them because he or she is jewish, nor to attack gentiles who (gasp!) point out that it's a fasle accusation. if it's false it's false, and i'm not standing by a falsehood because the person who coughs it up looks like me or worships the same god.

                        anyone born after the McDLT has no business stomping around acting punk rock

                        by chopper on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 12:14:56 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                  •  I doubt he would have responded (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    cryonaut

                    if he thought he was wrong. I'm not sure that using the fact that he was wrong makes any difference when determining whether his response was sexist. If he had been right, would the manner of his response have been justified?

                    Gondwana has always been at war with Laurasia.

                    by AaronInSanDiego on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 01:04:16 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

            •  It's the condescension that's the problem. and (15+ / 0-)

              that isn't a tiny issue. And you bloody know that. But then you're precisely the sort Una is talking about.

              FYI, I USED to be a secretary with a double master's and a Phi Beta Kappa key. There were a lot of us in my generation. And we know asshole when we see it.  I was a secretary to someone at NAB (Natl Association of Broadcasters). Back in the mid 70s.  I was typing, filing AND writing copy and articles for their anti-pay cable campaign.  They were bringing in a guy (whose nly qualification seemed to be having a penis and a year of selling radio time in a small market area) to be the Sst. Director. Of course, I had the two grad degrees, was writing articles (which he couldn't) and knew about the campaign inside and out.  But they couldn't promote ME because the broadcasters couldn't handle  "a pretty little girl like you" actually doing the job--even though I'd be doing the writing this idiot couldn't do--and I was gonna be paid HALF what the dimwit with a penis was getting.  

              A month later I quit after I met him. He was a James O'
              Keefe type--or the sort of jerk who was such a prick to Frankenoid.

              You don't get how tired we are of men like that. And that is a HUGE issue.

              The last time we mixed religion and politics people got burned at the stake.

              by irishwitch on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 08:23:56 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

        •  And your little rant is somehow interesting? (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          UnaSpenser

          I voted for the human beings.

          by denig on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 10:38:05 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  And you are extremely rude with this comment! (3+ / 0-)

      I haven't yet read what this diary refers to but I do not need to in order to explain to you why your comment it offensive, rude and 'dickish', as Kos would say.

      It might well be about nonsense but saying so invalidates the feelings of the person making the complaint. Invalidating someone's view, feelings or opinions belittles them. You shove them beneath you. Feel like a big honkin' deal now?? Makes you special?

      Made a bunch of people think your an idiot and jerk.

      Better is to acknowledge their feelings. You may even offer what you feel about it but that is all. Let them decide for themselves to agree or disagree. Otherwise, you are just projecting what you want them to feel.

      I am much too liberal to be a Democrat.

      by WiseFerret on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 08:54:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I don't agree with much of what you wrote (0+ / 0-)

        However spending some time in this diary made me do some thinking from a different perspective in order to understand some of the unjustified (in my view) reactions. Sometimes it's good to expand your mind for a thought experiment and try to understand why different people are the way they are.

    •  Complaining about sexism is nonsense? (6+ / 0-)

      Because in case you missed it, that's what the other diary was about.  The impetus for the other diarist's post was an exchange of e-mails she had with a male tech writer about a subject the diarist obviously knows well.  But the diary isn't about Microsoft Office.  It's about the diarist being dismissed by the writer because the person writing to him was a "mere" secretary named Franki.

      So now here you are, saying that all this is "nonsense."  I think you probably should have stayed out of it, but since you decided to step in, you might make an effort to listen to what the female users here have to say about sexism.  See, since they've been dealing with it all their lives, it's a subject they know well.  Unsurprisingly, they know it a lot better than you do.  (Just like African-Americans know a lot more about racism than we white folks do.)  Their experience has given them antennae that can detect sexism that might be invisible to us men.  Try to respect that, okay?  

      "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

      by FogCityJohn on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 09:36:22 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site