Skip to main content

View Diary: So You're Shocked Some Young, Southern White Dude Defended Slavery at CPAC? (249 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  I have a hard time believing (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Onomastic

    that is a majority viewpoint, even in the south,  but if it is, it won't be for long.  Racial attitudes have and are quickly changing in the South.

    OTOH, there is nothing wrong with judging people throughout history in party through the prism of the time they lived in.  Washington and Jefferson both owned slaves, but even many liberals, including those of color, have much respect for these men.

    •  I don't disagree with your last point (53+ / 0-)

      But there's a difference that I think is important. I'm talking about looking to those people for guidance on how we should live/govern TODAY.

      If the conversation shifts to, "But the founding fathers wouldn't have liked this...(insert social issue)," I have to note that, well, perhaps we've evolved enough in our thinking that we shouldn't be looking to people who owned slaves on issues of how to treat gay people?

      There's no reason to demonize a person from the 1700s for owning slaves. There's, at the same time, no reason to act as if 1700 was a time of great American values. The beauty of America is its ability to change and evolve.

      "I believe that, as long as there is plenty, poverty is evil." ~Bobby Kennedy

      by Grizzard on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 09:10:44 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  No disagreement there. (12+ / 0-)

        I see it as a huge moral failing, mostly due to greed.  It also humbles me; I wonder what people will think of us 200 years from no.

        •  Poorly, I hope (6+ / 0-)

          I hope that in 200 years they look back at this page in history and think of it as still the Dark Ages of Morality.  And that no human difference of any consequence--as most surface differences are of no consequence--matters any longer.

          Or that technology has come so far that, like Varley's writing, we switch genders and everything else on a whim and who the person is and what they do matters, not what they look like.

          (-6.38, -7.03) Moderate left, moderate libertarian

          by Lonely Liberal in PA on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 09:28:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  In the culture of obedience, it is not immoral (7+ / 0-)

          to hate those who don't obey. Obedience is a virtue. When it is the first and only commandment, doing what one is told is not only good, but whatever has been done cannot be wrong. The right is doing what one is told and doing what one is told is right. There is no doubt. There is also no arguing with that.

          Remember how situational ethics used to be decried? That would involve judging the morality of an act by its results. The culture of obedience wants nothing to do with that. Intent is the only thing that counts and intent depends on obedience. When the cause is obedience, then the result has no significance.

          Want an example? Dubya intended to bring democracy to Iraq. That hundreds of thousands ended up maimed and/or dead has no significance. Dubya was on a mission from a higher power and all those who obeyed his orders did good. If they were horrified by the actions they carried out, that's a sacrifice which civilians are supposed to honor and are wrong not to share. Indeed, the reluctance to share in the sacrifice that the culture of obedience demands justifies resentment.

          We organize governments to deliver services and prevent abuse.

          by hannah on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 05:21:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

      •  you are correct. (14+ / 0-)

        Racism is horrible and living in the middle of it makes one hate it more.  That war is not over.  The Civil War.
        The south for the most part want their slaves back and they really believe that black is a second class person.
        The don't believe in equal rights.. ( not the older ones) and they will never change.   Not without some divine intervention IMO.   See, they treat pets and other creatures kinder than they do the color black,  They don't have much use for Northerners either.  The Union took away their magnolias and dreams of having a slave serve you and what ever goes along with service,  They see AA as pets and not even human.  I am not shocked at Mississippi or Alabama or any of this language and attitude.. I was raised around it.   I have even seen KKK cross meeting.  I think our neighbor took us to a rally.
        I apologize for those type of hateful people.

        We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

        by Vetwife on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 11:34:43 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I used to read student essays (15+ / 0-)

          from Virginia and Maryland as part of my job.

          I came across one that was all about what would have happened if Robert E. Lee had been the victor in, as this student called it, the War of Northern Aggression.

          It was quite scary, to the point I showed it to my supervisor. She read it, and told me not to worry about it because she had seen much worse, and she wasn't going to get into the dangerous place of telling a Southerner that they lost the war and they should get over it. She was just happy the kid had done the assignment.

          Other Virginia teachers told me that they don't want to be teaching all this modern stuff. (That's what they called it!)  They said their students don't talk that way, their parents don't think that way, and they weren't going to put their jobs in danger by teaching "controversial" ideas. I grew up in Maryland, and we never learned any alternate histories of our state or our country.

          It made me wonder what people in Virginia are teaching their children about the history of that era. It seems very skewed toward a hateful, ignorant view of anyone who dared change their comfortable antebellum ways.

          "The difference between the right word and the almost-right word is like the difference between lightning and the lightning bug." -- Mark Twain

          by Brooke In Seattle on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 08:30:46 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  speaking of alternative history (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kyril, Black Max, Cassandra Waites

            The movie CSA (2005) is an excellent view of "if the South had won the war":

            Set in an contemporary alternative world where the Confederate States of America managed to win the American Civil War, a British film documentary examines the history of this nation. Beginning with its conquest of the northern states, the film covers the history of this state where racial enslavement became triumphant and the nation carried sinister designs of conquest. Interspersed throughout are various TV commercials of products of a virulent racist nature as well as public service announcements promoting this tyranny. Only at the end do you learn that there is less wholly imagined material in the film than you might suspect.
            http://www.imdb.com/...

            I did skim over how the CSA would have dealt with WWII.  The idea that the Nazi Luftwaffe would be parking their planes in North Carolina was not broached.

          •  Chocolate mints on slave ship pillows? (0+ / 0-)

            How far will the creative re-writing of history go? Will we next be hearing about the luxury accommodations of those 'lucky' newly enslaved Africans as they were being transported to their new life in Dixie?

            http://www.awesomestories.com/...
        •  My sister says AL, MS are far worse than Georgia (0+ / 0-)

          from the stories she hears from both her black and white colleagues..who tell horror stories of being raised there or having just moved from there to suburban Atlanta.  Granted, there are parts of Georgia that are very racist. But then again, sister says it is easier to confront most southern racists because they are quite overt and proud of it. But confronting it in the north where she sees it is tougher as the people are in such denial and it is a whisper thing in the north.

          Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

          by wishingwell on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 10:07:03 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Neither MS or AL have (0+ / 0-)

            any cities or universities that are really impressive-- Millsaps College in MS is pretty good and Birmingham's reasonably pleasant, but that's mostly it.  Well, Alabama has part of NASA, so thank the feds for that.

            (Note: I'm originally from MS and my SO is from AL; he has family near Atlanta.)

            Atlanta's a pretty major city, although the suburbs are dominated by what I think of as the most annoying type of conservatism-- wanting the amenities, higher income, & generally cosmopolitan feel of a city while being too chicken to actually live in one.  I imagine backwoods Georgia's about on a par with similar areas elsewhere in the deep south.

            "Conservative principles" are marketing props used by the Conservative Movement to achieve political power, not actual beliefs. -Glenn Greenwald

            by latts on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 03:06:44 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  . (5+ / 0-)

        The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
        The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
        The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
        The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
        The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
        The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
        The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
        The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
        The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
        The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
        The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
        The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
        The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
        The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
        The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
        The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
        The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
        The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
        The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
        The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.

        liberal bias = failure to validate or sufficiently flatter the conservative narrative on any given subject

        by RockyMtnLib on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 10:02:40 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  the Founding Fathers do not have authority over us (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Cassandra Waites

          There is no reason why this country must be anything other than what we want it to be.

          I think it's important to pull the Founders down off their pedestal.  There's so much more to be learned about them, about what they created, and about where we need to go by dropping the myth of selfless visionaries and cardboard archetypes and instead deal with them as who they really were: mostly wealthy men of their time with agendas.  A lot of them were straight-up romantics who were trying to re-create their own myth: the myth of the Roman Republic as some paragon of civic virtue - when in reality it was an ossified oligarchy and an empire in denial that died in the throes of civil war between elites and populists.  A lot of them were conservatives who utterly failed to anticipate even self-evident social and economic change: thinking and even hoping that we'd remain an agrarian backwater forever.

    •  Racial attitudes..are quickly changing in the S.? (7+ / 0-)

      It's now 2013, which means they haven't quickly changed...if at all.

      Republicans...What a nice club...of liars, cheaters, adulterers, exaggerators, hypocrites and ignoramuses. Der Spiegel -6.62, -6.92

      by CanyonWren on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 10:22:20 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Mostly the urban South -- and in part because a (10+ / 0-)

        whole bunch of educated Southerners and Yankees are settling there. Step outside the city borders and you're in the belly of the beast, from what I've seen. One wonders if Lincoln had lived to oversee Reconstruction if the old South might not have turned out to be as much of a historical anachronism as it has.

        Either way, writing's on the wall. Just have to wait 'em out, with any luck...

        "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

        by Kombema on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 10:32:57 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Right after finishing her Psychiatry residency, a (21+ / 0-)

          friend moved to a town 40 miles outside of Charlotte to satisfy a public health service obligation.  Most of her patients were court ordered into therapy for anger and violence issues.  Well the deep mind and soul probing wore the young doc down and she marked of the weeks and months until she could escape.

          After her last afternoon appointment on her last day at the rural clinic, she hopped into her already packed car and drove straight to Charlotte.  She has lived and practiced there for the last dozen years.  She says that racism and misogyny exists in many of her city patients too, but in the rural area she was in, it was a visceral all-encompasing hatred, with the added bonus of people feeling it was perfectly reasonable to use violence to express their hatred.

          Her opinion is that racism and misogyny cannot be easily fixed since most who hold such attitudes don't want to be fixed.  The only solution is to get to the children, and try to educate them, and the old haters  will have to die out.

          •  Yes, but the old haters (8+ / 0-)

            are often teaching their children what THEY want them to be taught, passing that hatred and ignorance on to yet another generation.

            "The difference between the right word and the almost-right word is like the difference between lightning and the lightning bug." -- Mark Twain

            by Brooke In Seattle on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 08:33:19 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  That's true, but as we see from the polling of (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CanyonWren, Cassandra Waites

              young people, only some it is sticking. Just have to wait for the old bigots to die off, and socialize the kids who are not completely propagandized by the Jesus Camp white supremacist mentality.

              "Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob." -- Franklin D. Roosevelt

              by Kombema on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 09:33:02 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Yes that is the frightening aspect of it, Brooke (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              CanyonWren, Cassandra Waites

              I so agree. My son thinks one of the answers is that the kids leave home shortly after high school for the military or college or a job out of state.. ..so they can see people and ideas different from them.

              Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

              by wishingwell on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 10:12:00 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  Of course the haters try to teach their progeny to (0+ / 0-)

              hate, just as the tolerant try to teach their kids to be tolerant.  

              I grew up in a union, democratic household, and while we rarely invited other kids to our church (only if their families were members too) I would get invited by other kids and their parents to fundy-style religious services and bible studies all of the time.  It would irritate my mom to no end!

              So yes, the conservative whacks will try to hold onto their own, and even recruit others, but as the last election shows, the younger generations are way more tolerant and open minded than their parents and grandparents.  I think this is what is behind the fundy homeschooling trend and attempts to take over local school boards.  

              On an individual level, we can make sure that we make time for the kids, teens, and young adults in our lives, to give those drowning in the hate of a wacko family that there is another point of view.  That is something we can all do.

        •  Yes transplants to the southern urban and suburban (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CanyonWren

          regions has been a positive thing  overall, depending on who the transplants are. I think it is has worsened things in places like AZ or when some of the older, conservative , more bigoted people move south.  

          But for the most part, the northern translants to the urban south like Atlanta has been a good thing. My sister says many of her friends are not natives of GA but from NJ, NY, PA . We saw that a lot especially 2o and 30 yrs ago..a ton of our friends and classmates moving south for jobs after the steel industry and mining industry and other jobs in PA went belly up.

          Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

          by wishingwell on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 10:10:28 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  are they? (6+ / 0-)
      Racial attitudes have and are quickly changing in the South.
      not convinced - at least not in parts of the South.

      Obama lost votes because of his skin color in various southern counties.

      An ambulance can only go so fast - Neil Young

      by mightymouse on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 07:41:48 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  It depends where in the south, as for instance, (0+ / 0-)

      my sister has spent 30 yrs teaching at a high school that is very diverse and so is her town. The majority of people who have doctoral degrees are African American and the highest incomes in her area are minorities. She is white but much beloved in a school where there are 33 different ethnic groups represented and where most of her students are either African American or Arabic or Hispanic.

      Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

      by wishingwell on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 10:03:35 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Why do you have a hard time believing that? (0+ / 0-)

      Look at who is being elected in the South, what they are saying and how these politicians are working to make life harder for the poor, minorities and women.  I am guessing it has been a while since you have been in the South or at least the South outside the metropolitan areas.

      The difficulty lies not so much in developing new ideas as in escaping from old ones! - John Maynard Keynes

      by Do Something on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 05:12:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Jefferson was thoroughly corrupt (0+ / 0-)

      in his ownership of slaves. He figured out that their value had a "natural increase" of 4% per year and boasted of it. After he was President he received a large bequest from a friend to buy some of his slaves who would be able to make lives for themselves, provision and transport them west to live in freedom. The considerable  remainder would be his to keep.

      Jefferson turned it down.

       Washington at least freed his slaves at his death.

      I'm asking you to believe. Not in my ability to bring about real change in Washington ... *I'm asking you to believe in yours.* Barack Obama

      by samddobermann on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 01:08:24 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site