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View Diary: So You're Shocked Some Young, Southern White Dude Defended Slavery at CPAC? (249 comments)

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  •  I don't disagree with your last point (53+ / 0-)

    But there's a difference that I think is important. I'm talking about looking to those people for guidance on how we should live/govern TODAY.

    If the conversation shifts to, "But the founding fathers wouldn't have liked this...(insert social issue)," I have to note that, well, perhaps we've evolved enough in our thinking that we shouldn't be looking to people who owned slaves on issues of how to treat gay people?

    There's no reason to demonize a person from the 1700s for owning slaves. There's, at the same time, no reason to act as if 1700 was a time of great American values. The beauty of America is its ability to change and evolve.

    "I believe that, as long as there is plenty, poverty is evil." ~Bobby Kennedy

    by Grizzard on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 09:10:44 PM PDT

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    •  No disagreement there. (12+ / 0-)

      I see it as a huge moral failing, mostly due to greed.  It also humbles me; I wonder what people will think of us 200 years from no.

      •  Poorly, I hope (6+ / 0-)

        I hope that in 200 years they look back at this page in history and think of it as still the Dark Ages of Morality.  And that no human difference of any consequence--as most surface differences are of no consequence--matters any longer.

        Or that technology has come so far that, like Varley's writing, we switch genders and everything else on a whim and who the person is and what they do matters, not what they look like.

        (-6.38, -7.03) Moderate left, moderate libertarian

        by Lonely Liberal in PA on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 09:28:39 PM PDT

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      •  In the culture of obedience, it is not immoral (7+ / 0-)

        to hate those who don't obey. Obedience is a virtue. When it is the first and only commandment, doing what one is told is not only good, but whatever has been done cannot be wrong. The right is doing what one is told and doing what one is told is right. There is no doubt. There is also no arguing with that.

        Remember how situational ethics used to be decried? That would involve judging the morality of an act by its results. The culture of obedience wants nothing to do with that. Intent is the only thing that counts and intent depends on obedience. When the cause is obedience, then the result has no significance.

        Want an example? Dubya intended to bring democracy to Iraq. That hundreds of thousands ended up maimed and/or dead has no significance. Dubya was on a mission from a higher power and all those who obeyed his orders did good. If they were horrified by the actions they carried out, that's a sacrifice which civilians are supposed to honor and are wrong not to share. Indeed, the reluctance to share in the sacrifice that the culture of obedience demands justifies resentment.

        We organize governments to deliver services and prevent abuse.

        by hannah on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 05:21:52 AM PDT

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    •  you are correct. (14+ / 0-)

      Racism is horrible and living in the middle of it makes one hate it more.  That war is not over.  The Civil War.
      The south for the most part want their slaves back and they really believe that black is a second class person.
      The don't believe in equal rights.. ( not the older ones) and they will never change.   Not without some divine intervention IMO.   See, they treat pets and other creatures kinder than they do the color black,  They don't have much use for Northerners either.  The Union took away their magnolias and dreams of having a slave serve you and what ever goes along with service,  They see AA as pets and not even human.  I am not shocked at Mississippi or Alabama or any of this language and attitude.. I was raised around it.   I have even seen KKK cross meeting.  I think our neighbor took us to a rally.
      I apologize for those type of hateful people.

      We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

      by Vetwife on Fri Mar 15, 2013 at 11:34:43 PM PDT

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      •  I used to read student essays (15+ / 0-)

        from Virginia and Maryland as part of my job.

        I came across one that was all about what would have happened if Robert E. Lee had been the victor in, as this student called it, the War of Northern Aggression.

        It was quite scary, to the point I showed it to my supervisor. She read it, and told me not to worry about it because she had seen much worse, and she wasn't going to get into the dangerous place of telling a Southerner that they lost the war and they should get over it. She was just happy the kid had done the assignment.

        Other Virginia teachers told me that they don't want to be teaching all this modern stuff. (That's what they called it!)  They said their students don't talk that way, their parents don't think that way, and they weren't going to put their jobs in danger by teaching "controversial" ideas. I grew up in Maryland, and we never learned any alternate histories of our state or our country.

        It made me wonder what people in Virginia are teaching their children about the history of that era. It seems very skewed toward a hateful, ignorant view of anyone who dared change their comfortable antebellum ways.

        "The difference between the right word and the almost-right word is like the difference between lightning and the lightning bug." -- Mark Twain

        by Brooke In Seattle on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 08:30:46 AM PDT

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        •  speaking of alternative history (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          kyril, Black Max, Cassandra Waites

          The movie CSA (2005) is an excellent view of "if the South had won the war":

          Set in an contemporary alternative world where the Confederate States of America managed to win the American Civil War, a British film documentary examines the history of this nation. Beginning with its conquest of the northern states, the film covers the history of this state where racial enslavement became triumphant and the nation carried sinister designs of conquest. Interspersed throughout are various TV commercials of products of a virulent racist nature as well as public service announcements promoting this tyranny. Only at the end do you learn that there is less wholly imagined material in the film than you might suspect.
          http://www.imdb.com/...

          I did skim over how the CSA would have dealt with WWII.  The idea that the Nazi Luftwaffe would be parking their planes in North Carolina was not broached.

        •  Chocolate mints on slave ship pillows? (0+ / 0-)

          How far will the creative re-writing of history go? Will we next be hearing about the luxury accommodations of those 'lucky' newly enslaved Africans as they were being transported to their new life in Dixie?

          http://www.awesomestories.com/...
      •  My sister says AL, MS are far worse than Georgia (0+ / 0-)

        from the stories she hears from both her black and white colleagues..who tell horror stories of being raised there or having just moved from there to suburban Atlanta.  Granted, there are parts of Georgia that are very racist. But then again, sister says it is easier to confront most southern racists because they are quite overt and proud of it. But confronting it in the north where she sees it is tougher as the people are in such denial and it is a whisper thing in the north.

        Follow PA Keystone Liberals on Twitter: @KeystoneLibs

        by wishingwell on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 10:07:03 AM PDT

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        •  Neither MS or AL have (0+ / 0-)

          any cities or universities that are really impressive-- Millsaps College in MS is pretty good and Birmingham's reasonably pleasant, but that's mostly it.  Well, Alabama has part of NASA, so thank the feds for that.

          (Note: I'm originally from MS and my SO is from AL; he has family near Atlanta.)

          Atlanta's a pretty major city, although the suburbs are dominated by what I think of as the most annoying type of conservatism-- wanting the amenities, higher income, & generally cosmopolitan feel of a city while being too chicken to actually live in one.  I imagine backwoods Georgia's about on a par with similar areas elsewhere in the deep south.

          "Conservative principles" are marketing props used by the Conservative Movement to achieve political power, not actual beliefs. -Glenn Greenwald

          by latts on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 03:06:44 PM PDT

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    •  . (5+ / 0-)

      The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
      The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
      The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
      The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
      The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
      The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
      The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
      The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
      The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
      The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
      The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
      The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
      The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
      The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
      The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
      The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
      The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
      The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
      The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.
      The Founding Fathers do not have authority over us.

      liberal bias = failure to validate or sufficiently flatter the conservative narrative on any given subject

      by RockyMtnLib on Sat Mar 16, 2013 at 10:02:40 AM PDT

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      •  the Founding Fathers do not have authority over us (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cassandra Waites

        There is no reason why this country must be anything other than what we want it to be.

        I think it's important to pull the Founders down off their pedestal.  There's so much more to be learned about them, about what they created, and about where we need to go by dropping the myth of selfless visionaries and cardboard archetypes and instead deal with them as who they really were: mostly wealthy men of their time with agendas.  A lot of them were straight-up romantics who were trying to re-create their own myth: the myth of the Roman Republic as some paragon of civic virtue - when in reality it was an ossified oligarchy and an empire in denial that died in the throes of civil war between elites and populists.  A lot of them were conservatives who utterly failed to anticipate even self-evident social and economic change: thinking and even hoping that we'd remain an agrarian backwater forever.

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