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View Diary: Bank Run in Cyprus, Will it Spread to Southern Europe? (322 comments)

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  •  Except that wages did not stagnate in all of EZ (0+ / 0-)

    In Spain, for instance, wages increased dramatically since 1999.

    Kavalor, if the citizens of each country want to cede local control to Brussels/Berlin, I'd have no problem with the EZ.

    But, today, a German and Greek feels even more German and Greek than two decades ago, not less.  This dream of an Italian feeling more European than Italian hasn't happened.

    And I don't think it will.  Twenty years from today, we'll have more countries represented in the UN, not fewer.

    I believe that the Euro was a bad bet made against the viability of the nation state.

    And now that so many Greeks, Italians and Germans continue to "cling" to their mother country, the overpaid Eurocrats in Brussels have no choice except to (a) admit defeat and unwind the EZ, or (b) insist on the EZ at the expense of democracy.

    Regrettably, they have chosen (b).

    Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. www.hamiltonproject.org

    by PatriciaVa on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 02:55:25 PM PDT

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    •  But (0+ / 0-)

      the wage increase in Spain and Greece is part of the prolems this country have because it wa sonly made possible with the cheap interest rates and basicallylimitless amount of credit - I mean no really economic changes necessary - everything will take care of itself.

      So at one point I definitely agree with you. The lack of democratic control in Europe is an issue , but its not caused by the bureaucrats themselves. Its cause dby the national governments who have absolutely no interest in a democratically legitimit Europe which would be able to tell them what to do.

      The EU (or EC as it was known pre-93 ) was always a economic project and it was businesses who wanted the Euro most. Every step to a democratisation has to be fought hard about.
      The original contract about the Euro viewed it as just one step in a process - it was commonly acknowledged that it would require adjustments in taxation and social systems all over Europe, but the political will to touch this topics was not there in fear of the Voter.

      That lobbyist pressured for it as soon as possible is a complete different topic. Even the watered down stability pact was not really wanted by most Governments but without Germany the Euro would not have happened.

      And if you look further back in History the first steps (European Coal and Steel Community) which regulated the production of coal and steel and the EURATOM /which regulted the nuclear research and production ) were mainly done to prevent war (and a resurgence of an independent germany) which at that time was completely understandable.

      Not a lotof people know that already in 1954 a proposal of a military/economic Union with common taxation and a common currency was proposed and basically agreed to with the original 6 members (BENELUX/FRA/ITA/WESTGERMANY) but DeGaulle pulled out at the last minute .

      http://www.economypoint.org/...

      http://en.wikipedia.org/...

      So yes the lack of democratic control was built in flaw and all attempts to correct it are mainly  blocked by the national governments.

      I don't personally think that the majority of people wants back to completely independent nations, and if then mainly because it is promised to be much better but no one has a clue what it would mean .
      For me it would mean a disaster as well politically as also economically and people would regret it soon - i'm convinced of that. But if it happens we will , as always , find someone else to blame :(

      "How many years since you found yourself staring at an endless sky? " VNV Nation - Endless Skies

      by Kavalor on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 03:34:17 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  "commonly acknowledged"??? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Cliss

        I doubt it was "commonly acknowledged" in Germany that the EZ would necessitate fiscal transfers from rich "states" to poor "states", in the same way that California sends money to Georgia.

        And I would also dispute the following statement.

        The lack of democratic control in Europe is an issue , but its not caused by the bureaucrats themselves. Its cause dby the national governments who have absolutely no interest in a democratically legitimit Europe which would be able to tell them what to do.
        I would argue that most national governments, especially in southern Europe, care more about their standing in Brussels than domestically.  Monti, for instance, couldn't care less about how he was perceived in Italy.  His focus was always on Brussels.  Same in Greece, where the current ruling class cares more about future jobs in Brussels than ensuring the dignity of the Greek people.

        Who wants more democracy in southern Europe?  I would point to brave and courageous pols like Alexis Tsipras in Greece or the Grillo movement in Italy.

        Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project. www.hamiltonproject.org

        by PatriciaVa on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 04:45:51 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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