Skip to main content

View Diary: Another day in the (gun crazy) U.S.A. (45 comments)

Comment Preferences

  •  One thing I would like to see (11+ / 0-)

    A current study of guns in the home and the chances the guns will be used to:

    1.  Shoot an intruder;
    2.  Shoot a family member or other resident of the home in a fit of anger;
    3.  Someone injured or killed by accidental discharge;
    4.  Guns are stolen and then used in the commission of a felony, and
    5.  Suicide.

    If 1 exceeds 2+3+4+5, then we should all concede that guns do keep us safer.  But the NRA and other gun supporters seem to be afraid of such a study.  We should all welcome the truth, wherever it lies.

    "We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals, now we know that it is bad economics." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Jan. 20, 1937

    by Navy Vet Terp on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 03:34:41 PM PDT

    •  No. (10+ / 0-)
      If ... then we should all concede that guns do keep us safer.
      Guns increase the chance my body will spring a leak.
    •  We already know that alcohol is a factor in (8+ / 0-)

      many injuries. 25% of fatal injuries involve alcohol + vehicle. 20% of fatal injuries involve alcohol + a firearm. Laws to separate lawful alcohol consumption from lawful RKBA are sorely needed, in my opinion. If you want to get depressed about the state of permissiveness see this study:

      A Review of Legislation Restricting the Intersection of Firearms and Alcohol in the U.S.

      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

      by LilithGardener on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 04:52:23 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  When the gun lobby says arm the college students (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        shopkeeper, WakeUpNeo, SoCalSal, StrayCat

        Which they did after the Virginia Tech massacre, I wonder how many have been in a bar in a college town on a Saturday night.

        "We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals, now we know that it is bad economics." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Jan. 20, 1937

        by Navy Vet Terp on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 05:07:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  No one under 21 can buy a handgun. (5+ / 0-)

          That's federal law.

          Between 18 and 21, they can own a rifle. It's important to keep that clear.

          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

          by LilithGardener on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 05:13:54 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  And no one under 21 can buy beer (4+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Egg, shopkeeper, WakeUpNeo, StrayCat

            Which didn't stop me when I was in college, nor my sons, nor virtually any other college student.

            "We have always known that heedless self-interest was bad morals, now we know that it is bad economics." Franklin Delano Roosevelt, Jan. 20, 1937

            by Navy Vet Terp on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 05:17:41 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  But state laws are more lenient (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            greengemini, myboo, LilithGardener

            In December, Wonkblog had this post The 6 craziest state gun laws, including this craziness:

            1. Concealed carry at 16 — with no permit: Most states that allow people to carry a concealed weapon on their person require gun owners to obtain a permit before doing so. But four states — Alaska, Arizona, Wyoming and Vermont — allow concealed carry without any permit. That means, the Brady Campaign’s Brian Malte tells me, that Jared Loughner was in full compliance with Arizona law up until the moment he used his concealed weapons to kill six people and severely injure Rep. Gabrielle Giffords.

            Vermont, however, stands out from the pack because it allows people as young as 16 to conceal carry without parental permission, as well as buy handguns. So a Vermont teenager aged 16 can’t legally go to an R-rated movie alone or join the military, but he can buy a handgun and carry it in his jeans and be completely within the limits of the law.

            That was confirmed by a DKos RKBAer and Vermont resident, who posted a comment that he would raise the age to 18 but leave the rest of that law intact.

            My jaw dropped.

            We cannot mistake absolutism for principle, or substitute spectacle for politics, or treat name-calling as reasoned debate. -Pres. Obama, 1/21/13

            by SoCalSal on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 10:03:22 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  In the article I reference above (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              SoCalSal

              (which was published in 2010) fewer than half the states prohibit sale of a firearm to someone intoxicated.

              Bear in mind, that a number of states have changed their firearm laws since 2010, but that is just so depressing to me.

              "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

              by LilithGardener on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 12:58:47 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Horrified is my reaction. (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                LilithGardener

                and mystified by the apparent conflict between federal and state gun laws. No time today for any online research for answers.

                We cannot mistake absolutism for principle, or substitute spectacle for politics, or treat name-calling as reasoned debate. -Pres. Obama, 1/21/13

                by SoCalSal on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 07:54:24 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

        •  The issue under the individual right (5+ / 0-)

          as I understand it, (under Hller) is that it is a right to keep and bear arms for the purpose of self-defense in one's home.

          Subsequent case law (as I understand it) is that the right to self defense extends outside one's home but necessarily everywhere (schools, government, etc.)

          It seems plausible that an argument would pass SCOTUS, that one's right to self defense need not be checked at the door of any venue where food and/or alcohol is served.

          On the other hand, it seems easy to show that people who are not trained in safe carry and handling of a firearm and in firearm law are a menace to themselves and others.

          Since the 2A protection involves self defense, it seems well within Heller that individuals could be required to be trained and licensed, before they can reasonably rely on a handgun for self defense.

          "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

          by LilithGardener on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 05:21:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  from what I've read...a gun in the home is (10+ / 0-)

      30 times more likely to be used to kill a resident (homicide, suicide and accident) than an intruder.

      no idea on #4...guns are not registered...and thefts do not need to be reported.


      We are not broke, we are being robbed.

      by Glen The Plumber on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 04:55:19 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  The problem with "accidental shootings" as a class (9+ / 0-)

      of shootings is that the police don't want to investigate or prosecute he said/she said situation. And where the victim is dependent on the shooter financially, for a job, or through family there can be powerful incentives to lie to the police about what was really going on at the time of the shooting.

      Reposting my comment from last night (edited): http://www.dailykos.com/...

      We can't know for sure - unless every gun was equipped with a miniature black box video cam recording everything it "looked" at and every time a round was chambered.

      Alcohol related injuries: 25% vehicle, 20% firearm. I suspect that the number of self shootings as a fraction of total "accidental" shootings reflects carelessness to a first approximation. I'd guess that alcohol is a big factor. But we also see fairly sadistic misogynistic gunplay, (e.g. those videos showing a slender woman shooting a shotgun and being knocked off her feet - while someone was filming her. Those are made by people who enjoy humiliating and injuring women, otherwise they would give her adequate instruction).

      Yes, a lot of these shootings are UNINTENTIONAL - although not necessarily accidental. I'm starting to actively reject the word accidental because a shooting requires too many non-random steps.

      A vehicle collision arising from a deer running onto a highway is a vehicle accident because the deer on a roadway is a risk factor that can be controlled. A vehicle collision resulting from bald tires is carelessness, if the owner didn't know the tires were bald; that's why we require annual safety inspections. A vehicle accident the results from drunk driving is not an accident, and it is not the result of carelessness. The alcoholic beverages didn't randomly find their way into a driver's body. It required a conscious decision to drink.

      There is a similar gradient for guns - from accident to careless to recklessness.

      Someone has to purchase the gun.
      Someone has to purchase the ammo.
      Someone has to load the ammo in the magazine or into the gun.
      Someone has to chamber the round and/or pull the hammer back (in a revolver) and/or click off the safety, etc.

      In most situations someone had to put their finger inside the trigger guard. (That's that metal loop around the trigger on every firearm to prevent the trigger from being bumped when the gun falls over or knocks against something.

      In the majority of shootings an additional step is necessary and MUST BE COINCIDENT with the finger on the trigger. The open end of the rifle had to be pointing at a person at the same time someone's finger was on the trigger.

      Do a quick 360 scan and an up/down scan around yourself. Now imagine any kind of rod in your hand and you'll see how the vast majority of random positions a gun could take DO NOT and CAN NOT intersect with a human being.

      Only when ALL of those non-random earlier steps were  taken AND the open end is pointed at a person AND someone's finger is on the trigger is there an injury or death by gunfire.

      When people claim the gun "just went off" to me it's like a saying that a car "just put itself in gear and drove itself down the road and hit someone." No, not usually. Usually there was a driver behind the wheel who turned the car on, put it in gear and failed to operate it in a safe manner.

      A commenter recently suggested that a number of shootings classified as accidental were probably homicides with immediate remorse.

      "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

      by LilithGardener on Sun Mar 17, 2013 at 05:02:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

Subscribe or Donate to support Daily Kos.

Click here for the mobile view of the site