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View Diary: Arrests Made for Death Threats Against Steubenville Rape Victim (259 comments)

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  •  The report had the decency to not name the girls (4+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Lujane, BlackSheep1, deePA, Tonedevil

    They are 15 and 16 year old girls.

    Why release the name of one here?

    "Never wrestle with a pig: you get dirty and the pig enjoys it"

    by GrumpyOldGeek on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 07:51:49 PM PDT

    •  Maybe because she (40+ / 0-)

      is a twitter devotee and released her own name into the twitosphere.  I have zero sympathy for anyone who uses social networks and says or displays stupid shite about themselves.

      " My faith in the Constitution is whole; it is complete; it is total." Barbara Jordan, 1974

      by gchaucer2 on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 07:55:02 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  She outed herself (51+ / 0-)

      I don't quite get this.  These people post this crap under their own names, for all in the Twitterverse to see.

      Yet you have an objection to the diarist posting her Tweet?

      I'm not in favor of outing people but if you're going to post garbage under your own name, by your choice, well then...fair game.  

      Your flag decal won't get you into heaven anymore. John Prine -8.00,-5.79

      by Miss Blue on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 07:57:40 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Stop it GoG. You know very well that the girl (13+ / 0-)

      made her own name public.

      If kids are going to be allowed to participate in the social media, using their real names*, then they will suffer the consequences for bald faced idiocy and venom.

      I have no sympathy for her, or the animals involved in the original crimes, nor the adults who tried to cover it up.

      * Why do you think I'm not on Facebook, Twitter etc.?

      'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

      by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 09:11:43 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  WTF? Are you using a fake name?!! (12+ / 0-)

        That is BULLSHIT. All this time I thought that was your real name.

        ((disappointed))

        Since when is the party that embraces all the top tenets of Satan allowed to call the God shots?--wyvern

        by voracious on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 09:39:33 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The keyword I used was decency, not sympathy (4+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        deePA, Deep Texan, elmo, Tonedevil

        Ethical standards is an appropriate concept. too.

        Lack of sympathy does not justify a lack of empathy.
        Or lack of respect for the individuals and their families.

        These are children. They have been arrested. There will be consequences.

        The report linked by the diarist includes the text of the threats but not the names of the teenage girls who wrote them. The sheriff and the reporter didn't report the names.

        Even though she outed herself.

        You might give this some thought.

        Publishing the names of adults is ok.
        Publishing the names of children is not.

        Or you can keep rubbing salt in the wounds.

        I'm not going to stop calling out unethical and indecent behavior.

        "Never wrestle with a pig: you get dirty and the pig enjoys it"

        by GrumpyOldGeek on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 10:13:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The child published her own name... (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          historys mysteries, Smoh

          and she should have expected blow-back.

          Toothpaste and tubes.

          I'm not going to stop calling out unethical and indecent behavior.
          Does that include the issuing of death threats and threats of violence?

          Must be good to be you.

          'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

          by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 10:28:51 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's a child ! (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            deePA, Deep Texan

            Don't you get this?

            I guess you don't.

            "Never wrestle with a pig: you get dirty and the pig enjoys it"

            by GrumpyOldGeek on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 10:30:43 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  So you would ask (3+ / 0-)

              that the media and this diarist redact the name of this young person, when the social media sites themselves do not do so?  (although perhaps they should?)

              I guess I don't understand why you are so outraged that this Tweet appears here on Kos, when it is over on Twitter and anyone can view it with the poster's real, actual name displayed.

              •  It is a CHILD. (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Deep Texan, elmo, Tonedevil

                Revealing the name of a juvenile who has been charged, arrested, taken into custody, and beyond is a class 4 misdemeanor specifically listed in the Ohio statutes.

                Spreading the name is not only unethical and indecent, doing this is a violation of Ohio law. I'm not outraged that the tweet appears here, rather I'm astonished that people try to rationalize posting the names of juveniles to the public just because of emotional outrage. And use the same emotional outrage to rail against anyone who reveals the name of the victim.

                The law is very clear. Revealing the name of any juvenile is not permitted. Period. Even if no law is violated, it's still eually unethical and indecent. A juvenile is everyone under 18 years old. Nothing else matters.

                The original message isn't at play here. Posting multiple copies of the message or the content of the message that reveals the name is a problem. Posting it to the public is worse. Posting it to a worldwide audience is seriously stupid. IMO, this is just as stupid as the idiots who posted the hate in Ohio.

                Contrary to claims by those who assume they know everything, Twitter messages are not in the public domain. They belong to twitter.com (the business). Twitter allows anyone to view, copy, and resend  messages. Nobody is granted legal immunity from violations of any law.

                She revealed her own name. This doesn't grant you a license to reveal her name to others. It's not ok because she outed herself.

                Of course there are always those who complain about getting speeding tickets and argue that my advice to not speed is ridiculous because everybody speeds.

                I think that's what's happening here.

                So I'll let it be for now. But I'll still be here to annoy others about this the next time.

                "Never wrestle with a pig: you get dirty and the pig enjoys it"

                by GrumpyOldGeek on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 02:19:59 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  She is a 'child' who has now been arrested and... (7+ / 0-)

              has very serious charges laid against her.

              Don't you get this?

              I guess you don't. Are you excusing her because of some arbitrary social line? Do you think that 'children' can't kill or have easy access to weapons? (Please, what is this gun debate we've had since Sandy Hook?)

              The 'child' is alleged to have committed a crime and has been arrested. She will be tried in accordance with the law (I hope) and none of your grandstanding will amount to anything.

              And please don't give me the 'child's brain isn't mature' malarkey. Look at the language she used in the tweet. She knows right from wrong.

              'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

              by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 10:47:20 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So did the young men (8+ / 0-)

                but people are calling them "children" as well.  

                To me, these are teenagers and young adults.  Our society is very strange this way - over-protecting our young people right up until the minute they turn 18, and, then expecting them to be mature adults.  I don't see how that's even possible.  Plus, the ages seem so arbitrary.  Old enough to drive, old enough to marry, but not to vote.  Old enough to vote or die in war, but not to drink.  It's weird.   Maybe we need a sub-category from 16 to 21 or something.  

              •  It's a class 4 misdemeanor to divulge confidential (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Deep Texan, Tonedevil

                juvenile records according to the Ohio statutes. And juvenile records are immediately sealed. The records of arrest and being  taken into custody are included in the list. The names of juveniles in the juvenile court system are confidential.

                Your assumption that she's charged with some sort of a super-serious crime is nonsense. The charges of menacing and aggravated menacing are misdemeanors in this case. Here's the definition and classification of the more serious charge:

                2903.21 Aggravated menacing.

                (A) No person shall knowingly cause another to believe that the offender will cause serious physical harm to the person or property of the other person, the other person’s unborn, or a member of the other person’s immediate family.

                (B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of aggravated menacing. Except as otherwise provided in this division, aggravated menacing is a misdemeanor of the first degree. If the victim of the offense is an officer or employee of a public children services agency or a private child placing agency and the offense relates to the officer’s or employee’s performance or anticipated performance of official responsibilities or duties, aggravated menacing is a felony of the fifth degree or, if the offender previously has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to an offense of violence, the victim of that prior offense was an officer or employee of a public children services agency or private child placing agency, and that prior offense related to the officer’s or employee’s performance or anticipated performance of official responsibilities or duties, a felony of the fourth degree.

                Here's the charge of menacing:
                2903.22 Menacing.

                (A) No person shall knowingly cause another to believe that the offender will cause physical harm to the person or property of the other person, the other person’s unborn, or a member of the other person’s immediate family.

                (B) Whoever violates this section is guilty of menacing. Except as otherwise provided in this division, menacing is a misdemeanor of the fourth degree. If the victim of the offense is an officer or employee of a public children services agency or a private child placing agency and the offense relates to the officer’s or employee’s performance or anticipated performance of official responsibilities or duties, menacing is a misdemeanor of the first degree or, if the offender previously has been convicted of or pleaded guilty to an offense of violence, the victim of that prior offense was an officer or employee of a public children services agency or private child placing agency, and that prior offense related to the officer’s or employee’s performance or anticipated performance of official responsibilities or duties, a felony of the fourth degree.

                The ONLY exception to sealing juvenile records is if the child is to be tried as an adult. This requires a charge that would be a felony if an adult were charged with the crime. The charges aren't felonies.

                By revealing the names of the juveniles who were charged, everyone who has revealed the name is technically subject to a charge that, in Ohio, is a 4th degree misdemeanor.

                No judge would give a crap about your opinion and your emotional outrage.

                Not only is it unethical, it's against the law. It doesn't matter if the person revealed this information herself.

                They'll get probation which generally includes a curfew and school records supervision, maybe a suspended sentence, maybe a written apology or community service, maybe an anger management type of order, etc. And you can be sure that the parents will be lectured and all but ordered to ground them, take away computer and cell phones, and plenty of intrusive monitoring of everything they do.

                The girls won't ever forget.

                And you think this is grandstanding on my part? Yeah, sure.

                "Never wrestle with a pig: you get dirty and the pig enjoys it"

                by GrumpyOldGeek on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 12:47:57 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  Once again, and for the last time... (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  LSophia

                  the girl made her own name public.

                  Emotional outrage? Mine? I think you'd better look back at your posts.

                  'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

                  by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 12:57:38 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Once again, it's a violation of law for YOU (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Deep Texan, antimony, Tonedevil

                    to reveal her name. It is not a violation of law for HER to reveal her own name.

                    Revealing the name of any juvenile should always be the wrong thing to do.

                    But here's the rub:

                    If it's revealing the name of the victim, the commenters bash those who leaked her name.

                    If it's revealing the name of the girls who threatened the victim, then the commenters rationalize revealing her name. It's somehow fair because she posted her own name. Or it's ok because her peers need to know she did something bad.

                    Can't have it both ways.

                    The fact is that all of these names are known. Each person, including the victim, revealed their own name.

                    So there is no possible valid justification for treating the exposure of the names differently. The ONLY difference is the emotions of the commenters. It bad vs. victim. Yes, there's a difference in how we feel about each of these people.

                    If you are that teenager girl. If your child is that teenage girl. If that teenage girl next door is....

                    It's unethical, It's disrespectful. It's mean. It's unnecessary. It's not your job. It's not your kid. You aren't the parent. You don't even know any of these kids.

                    But she revealed her own name, so it's ok.

                    There's a reason this is a violation of Ohio law. It's not negotiable.

                    "Never wrestle with a pig: you get dirty and the pig enjoys it"

                    by GrumpyOldGeek on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 03:04:14 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Good. Now take that to Fox, CNN and MSNBC. nt (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      PinHole, LSophia, Smoh

                      'If you want to be a hero, well just follow me.' - J. Lennon

                      by Clive all hat no horse Rodeo on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 04:11:44 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  "I'm gonna tell!!! (0+ / 0-)

                      I'm gonna tell !!!!"  sez GOG at least 5 times.

                      Who ya gonna tell?

                      (silence)
                      *******
                      Unlike at FAUX, repetition is not likely to change any minds here, GOG.  But it will sure irritate people.  

                    •  you are correct (2+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Tonedevil, GrumpyOldGeek

                      doesn't seem to help though. ppl own bias clouds their judgement here. we are all prone to this.

                      you are correct about the legal and ethical considerations. thanks for trying to educate.

                      -You want to change the system, run for office.

                      by Deep Texan on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 06:23:34 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Thanks for that. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Tonedevil, Deep Texan

                        Careful, though. The education is mine. Cognitive bias is a fascinating subject.

                        The same irrational thinking goes on with the right, too. The difference is that they tend to support the rapists as the victims. Exposing the name of their accuser, the rape victim, is what they rationalize.

                        Oh, and the right wingers jump into ad hominem arguments right away. So I don't learn much from the wingers.

                        But it's really the same boneheaded self-will and inflated ego that drives this behavior.

                        Hopefully, a few lurkers might have learned something about the blindness that is so apparent in some of the comment in this thread.

                        "Never wrestle with a pig: you get dirty and the pig enjoys it"

                        by GrumpyOldGeek on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 07:11:16 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                    •  The laws will catch up to our technology (0+ / 0-)

                      eventually.

                      In the meantime, some people are learning some really ugly lessons about pixels on a screen and the forever-ness of our tech.

                      David Koch is Longshanks, and Occupy is the real Braveheart.

                      by PsychoSavannah on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 10:12:10 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

              •  No, not at all (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Tonedevil

                There's no "excusing" going on her. But these girls are now juvenile defendants in the criminal justice system. Their names are not meant to be publicized.

              •  Children don't understand Consequences (0+ / 0-)

                Children don't understand consequences the same way an adult does. They haven't lived long enough to have the ability to conceptualize time the same way an adult has and to understand how their life can be changed in far reaching way as a result of a choice they make in the here and now. They also have less self-control and are more likely to do or say something in the moment when feelings are running strong and then regret it afterwards. Teens are particular prone to letting their emotions run away from them because they are adjusting to the new mix of hormones in their body.

                So yes, in the abstract, kids know what is right and wrong. But frequently they are too immature to be able to consistently govern their impulses - especially when it comes to words because they have yet to mature.

        •  This "child" (8+ / 0-)

          is a teenager, who, presumably, had the power to set up her own Twitter account and her own Facebook page.  She established her own public persona and posted these things onto it.  The diarist did not have to go to any trouble to "out" her.  Anyone in the world could simply search for "Steubenville Death Threats" and there their names would be.

          If you want to argue that kids shouldn't have the ability to Tweet or create public Facebook pages, I think you'd have a strong point (although the kids might not agree).  But no one's privacy was violated in copying that actual Twitter page - I could view it myself in about seven seconds, which is another reason I never use Twitter.

      •  Why don't you go on those systems (2+ / 0-)

        with a fake name?

        My Twitter handle is the same as my handle here. My FB handle is Non Person.

        Organ donors save lives! A donor's kidney gave me my life back on 02/18/11; he lives on in me. Please talk with your family about your wish to donate.

        Why are war casualty counts "American troops" and "others" but never "human beings"?

        by Kitsap River on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 10:15:58 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  She outed herself (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      LSophia

      By using her real name in her account and tweets.

      Appreciate your sentiment, but this one is fait accompli.

      What about my Daughter's future?

      by koNko on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 10:21:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  So it's ok to bash children if they use their name (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Deep Texan, Tonedevil

        Awesome.

        I really don't understand the need to justify spreading more venom toward these children.

        More to the point, why do YOU feel compelled to justify this bad behavior?

        "Never wrestle with a pig: you get dirty and the pig enjoys it"

        by GrumpyOldGeek on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 10:28:50 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  because they need to understand, and so do peers (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          PinHole

          of their age / immaturity: what they did is NOT OKAY.

          Can you not see that?

          LBJ, Lady Bird, Van Cliburn, Ike, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

          by BlackSheep1 on Mon Mar 18, 2013 at 11:08:45 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  It's against Ohio law to reveal their names (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Deep Texan, antimony, Tonedevil

            Do you not understand why that might be so?

            "Never wrestle with a pig: you get dirty and the pig enjoys it"

            by GrumpyOldGeek on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 12:49:53 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  "I'm gonna tell!!! (0+ / 0-)

              I'm gonna tell !!!!"  sez GOG at least 6 times.

              Who ya gonna tell?

              (silence)

              ^^^^^^^^^^^
              For the last time:  

              Unlike at FAUX, repetition is not likely to change any minds here, GOG.  But it will sure irritate people.  

              •  Grumpy is right about the legal and ethical (6+ / 0-)

                issues here.  your behavior is childish, rude and legally corrupt imo.

                -You want to change the system, run for office.

                by Deep Texan on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 06:25:44 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  And he is also ignoring the fact (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  BlackSheep1, PinHole

                  These girls used their own names on the tweets and Facebook posts.

                  We would not know and would not be discussing this had they not made death threats and threats to commit violence against a rape victim. Their actions made this a news item and the subject of discussion here.

                  Feel free to review my comments and tell me I'm being childish, rude and legally corrupt as well if that is the case but it doesn't change the facts of what they did.

                  What about my Daughter's future?

                  by koNko on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 08:01:11 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  Oh NO! (directed to Deep Texan) (0+ / 0-)

                  Now I'm a legally corrupting influence!  HA! HA!

                  "Who ya gonna tell?"  

                  It wasn't your turn to watch me.

                  The constant repetition of others reading the riot acts was getting beyond tiresome, and quite insufferable.

                  Yes, the raped girl's name should not have been revealed to a national audience.

                  But this little snot, who is SO upset she would kill someone, that her cousin cried in court, revealed her own name.  

                  Have NO sympathy for the 'innocence' & insolence of teens who have NO control.  And if they have no control, they shouldn't have use of Facebook, Twitter, etc.  The ultimate blame goes the adults in their lives.  (Who are obviously neither adults or monitoring their charges - Seemingly half the area around Stuebenville.*)

                  Zillions of us managed to grow up without this gang garbage.

                  Sling your donuts!  
                  Report this 60+yo NYS resident to the Ohio police!!!

                  P-fff-tttt!
                  ________
                  * What kind of place employs 27 football coaches?  If they employed 10 extra math & English teachers/coaches each, maybe they wouldn't be such a depressed area.

                  This area is corrupt, childish, and failing their youth, imo. We happen to know it well, in this household.  
                  I suggest you take a look at my background here and in real life, before you sling careless words.

            •  Again ... (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              BlackSheep1

              These girls used their names themselves. They did it. Full stop.

              Is there something about that basic fact you don't understand?

              What about my Daughter's future?

              by koNko on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 07:55:27 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  If public blowback causes these girls (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Tonedevil, GrumpyOldGeek

                to become depressed, and then attempt suicide, how would you feel? Still righteous about the fact that it's ok to publicize their names because they did it first?

                •  My goodness. (0+ / 0-)

                  Let's all worry about their fee fees.

                  I like to hide mine in the crack of a turkey.

                  by DoobyOne on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 09:58:02 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  But we are not doing that. (0+ / 0-)

                  We are commenting on the case and, as far as I can see, not naming them.

                  Their names are in the public space because they used them and news sources are reporting, something we do not control.

                  Righteousness? No. Reason.

                  If they become depressed (I'd presume that happened when they faced arrest for their actions) it would be a natural and appropriate reaction to the situation they now find themselves in and perhaps a healthy response if it leads to reasoned self-examination. I hope for that.

                  If they attempted suicide, that would be a tragedy and an outcome I doubt anyone here is looking for.

                  But the simple fact is they acted in the public space and will now have to face the consequences.

                  Personally, I think the fact they were arrested is good because it is likely to get them supervision and counseling they obviously need, possibly preventing further self-destructive behavior.

                  Hopefully, there is a silver lining for this town and the teenagers living there.

                  Hopefully this forces examination and work on the underlying problems, this situation was not created from a vacuum (although neglect factored large).

                  What about my Daughter's future?

                  by koNko on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 09:38:15 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I might be mistaken (0+ / 0-)

                    but I believe this thread started originally when someone pointed out that this diary reposts one of the girl's names. This was then defended because the girl herself tweeted under her own name.

                    I guess my belief is that just because something is "out there" on the internet is no justification to repeat it. The names of juvenile criminal defendants are ordinarily kept private, and for good reason.

          •  I think that being charged with a crime (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            sneakers563, Tonedevil

            is going to clue them into the fact that it is not ok. Blasting them by name on a blog isn't necessary.

            •  I wasn't thinking about a blog (0+ / 0-)

              so much as a permanent database somewhere. That, you know, future employers, college admissions officers, etc. could access.

              If they're going to act like terrorists, treat them like terrorists.

              LBJ, Lady Bird, Van Cliburn, Ike, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

              by BlackSheep1 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 08:20:56 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Can you consider the possibility (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Tonedevil, GrumpyOldGeek

                that these teens were just ranting (stupidly, since they attached their own names)?

                I've seen comments just as bad hide rated on this blog. Do you think that each user of such a HR comment here deserves to have their real name in a permanent database accessible to employers and schools? And presumably, these users on Dailykos are adults, not minors.

                Think. The actual rapists will not have their juvenile records following them around all their lives, but you are suggesting that these girls should? Is what they wrote worse than what those boys did?

                Surely not.

                •  I'm not suggesting a damn thing that isn't (0+ / 0-)

                  verifiable: stupid should not be a protected handicap, and terroristic threats should definitely be part of their permanent records. As far as the rapists' juvenile records being sealed / expunged? In this case I surely hope that doesn't happen.

                  LBJ, Lady Bird, Van Cliburn, Ike, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

                  by BlackSheep1 on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 08:53:51 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

        •  Did I say that? (0+ / 0-)

          I said she used her name and that's why it is known and reported.

          If you want to rant about bad behavior perhaps you can address the foolish death threats. Or is that not bad behavior?

          What about my Daughter's future?

          by koNko on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 07:52:29 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Yes, it is. (0+ / 0-)

          A little more shaming for morons isn't a bad thing.

          I like to hide mine in the crack of a turkey.

          by DoobyOne on Tue Mar 19, 2013 at 09:57:18 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

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