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View Diary: Universal background check could be as dead as assault weapons ban (614 comments)

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  •  We may not register all cars (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    poco

    but we keep a database of all VINs of cars made over the past X years, and states keep title records, and if anyone tries to drive an unregistered car outside their property, they're in trouble if caught.

    Now how many people keep AR-15s at home that they keep unloaded and disabled and do not intend to use under any circumstances?

    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

    by kovie on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 03:35:49 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Re (0+ / 0-)

      You have access to all serial numbers from gun manufacturers as it is.  If anyone tries to use a firearm off private property without a serial, well, they're in trouble if caught.

      When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

      by Patrick Costighan on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 03:39:46 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Problem is that all these shootings (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LilithGardener

        were done with guns that had SNs, and I believe were legally purchased and owned. Obviously SOMETHING is broken there.

        "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

        by kovie on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 03:55:39 PM PDT

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        •  Re (0+ / 0-)

          Yes.  Got a solution to address that to some degree.  Periodically updated, affirmative, certified declaration of medical and mental health.  Can be provided through the same system in which we secure the firearms audit trail.  Can be expanded to a wide range of other commercial activities involving dangerous substances, machinery, etc.

          When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

          by Patrick Costighan on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 04:10:55 PM PDT

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          •  The original RKBA mission statement (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            FogCityJohn
            Right to Keep and Bear Arms is a DKos group of second amendment supporters who also have progressive and liberal values. We don't think that being a liberal means one has to be anti-gun. Some of us are extreme in our second amendment views (no licensing, no restrictions on small arms) and some of us are more moderate (licensing, restrictions on small arms.) Moderate or extreme or somewhere in between, we hold one common belief: more gun control equals lost elections.  We don't want a repeat of 1994. We are an inclusive group: if you see the Second Amendment as safeguarding our right to keep and bear arms individually, then come join us in our conversation. If you are against the right to keep and bear arms, come join our conversation. We look forward to seeing you, as long as you engage in a civil discussion.  
            Emphasis mine.

            Perhaps you could explain how the first part in bold can exist in the same universe as universal background checks?

            The second bolding just makes me laugh my arse off - as if you care more about who wins an election than your precious gunz.

            •  Re: (0+ / 0-)

              So you still can't find any evidence of even a single RKBA member categorically objecting to universal background checks.  Got it.

              More gun control likely does hurt Democrats.  Fortunately, universal background checks need not be "more gun control."

              When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

              by Patrick Costighan on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 04:45:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Not sure if you're snarking here (0+ / 0-)

            I'm for prohibiting the mentally ill or otherwise not fit to own and use a gun from owning guns. I'm not for otherwise lawful gun owners to prove their sanity on a regular basis. How would that even be done, aside from its being an obvious civil liberties violation? However, if you're found to be mentally unfit to own a gun through some other process, you lose the right to own one.

            "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

            by kovie on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 04:29:00 PM PDT

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            •  Re (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Kentucky Kid

              You are asking for just that.  We're just debating over who holds the record.  

              When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

              by Patrick Costighan on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 04:46:31 PM PDT

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              •  We agree on a sanity requirement (0+ / 0-)

                We disagree on how it's determined and the records kept.

                "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

                by kovie on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 05:14:09 PM PDT

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                •  Re: (0+ / 0-)

                  No, not really on how it's determined.  I'm all for limiting it to adjudicated findings.  We disagree on whether the federal government need hold all the records.  Your state will hold the record regardless; it's a state court adjudication.  I'm simply proposing that the method of delivering notification be transferred from the federal government to the individual.  I do so for a very specific technical reason; it's a hell of a lot easier to implement than trying to ETL data from fifty states and all their counties onto a single system.

                  When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

                  by Patrick Costighan on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 05:22:05 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  I'm not religious on the specific method (0+ / 0-)

                    by which records are kept and accessed, and by whom. But any entity that has a legitimate right to inspect such records, should be able to do so, quickly, and of course lawfully, with audit trails and gag orders, etc.

                    "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

                    by kovie on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 05:24:47 PM PDT

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                    •  Re: (0+ / 0-)

                      That's not an objection.  Under my system, if you present proof of a legitimate right, a warrant, to the appropriate persons, they have to present you with what's required,  explain why they cannot, or--if said explanation is inadequate--pay the appropriate penalty.

                      When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

                      by Patrick Costighan on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 05:29:49 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

    •  I legally own a car (0+ / 0-)

      it is roadworthy, and I drive in a safe manner.

      how is registration useful?  How would authorities know in the first place if it is utilized in an appropriate manner?

      Do you support checkpoints to assure registration?

      I see a very beautiful planet that seems very inviting and peaceful. Unfortunately, it is not.…We're better than this. We must do better. Cmdr Scott Kelley

      by wretchedhive on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 04:02:47 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Registration is displayed on the outside of your (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        kovie

        car, is it not?

        "They did not succeed in taking away our voice" - Angelique Kidjo - Opening the Lightning In a Bottle concert at Radio City Music Hall in New York City - 2003

        by LilithGardener on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 04:33:45 PM PDT

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      •  It's useful because if your car is registered (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LilithGardener, BradyB, FogCityJohn

        then it means that it's passed your state's safety and emissions standards, if any, and can be tracked back to you if involved in an accident or crime.

        Or stolen, for that matter.

        "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

        by kovie on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 04:36:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  would you concede that an unregistered car (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          noway2

          could be safe and pass emissions?   and that the ownership is not indicative of who was operating it if involved in an accident or crime.

          This country has gone punishment crazy.  They want to prosecute to the 6th sigma of everything involved instead of focusing on the person who chose to commit a crime.

          I see a very beautiful planet that seems very inviting and peaceful. Unfortunately, it is not.…We're better than this. We must do better. Cmdr Scott Kelley

          by wretchedhive on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 05:58:00 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Could be, but not found to be (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            BradyB

            Huge and important difference, legally, and in terms of the public good. Registration, if done right, assures us of this, to the extent possible.

            As for ownership, it might not prove proximate fault, but it would help in determining it. Presumably, unless your car was stolen, you'd know who was driving it at the time. Plus, you could still be held legally liable even if you weren't driving it, if you lent it out.

            Cars aren't registered just for the hell of it.

            "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

            by kovie on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 06:04:51 PM PDT

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            •  however, for cars to be normally utilized (0+ / 0-)

              they access public roads, wherein they are by their fulfilled purpose of usage, has a public interest for liability and strict safety standards.

              I see a very beautiful planet that seems very inviting and peaceful. Unfortunately, it is not.…We're better than this. We must do better. Cmdr Scott Kelley

              by wretchedhive on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 08:05:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

    •  Most states register the PEOPLE who (0+ / 0-)

      lawfully take guns out into public.

    •  Stop with the Car Analogies, already! (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Kentucky Kid

      About a car registration--you are PARTLY correct, and some states may have different regulations, just that I'm not aware.  If you never drive your vehicle  off your property, you are not subject to any government regulation whatsoever, and that includes state registration.  You may modify it in any way, remove seatbelts, remove smog-control equipment, etc.  You may haul it by trailer to another place, over a public road, and drive it at that other place if it is not on a public road (drag strip, off-road CLOSED private race course, etc.).. You are correct that somewhere, in a database, is the VIN of that vehicle.  

      In the drag racing/stock car racing community, cars without titles change hands all the time.  All that is needed is a bill of sale (and check CarFax to be certain that the car is not stolen--if the original owner should show up with the title, and the car was stolen, the buyer is out-of-luck and the "owner" can reclaim the car).  The state doesn't enter into the picture, at all, although law enforcement could check the VIN to ascertain if the car is on the stolen list, I don't know any instance of that happening.

      •  And what percentage of cars in working condition (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        LilithGardener

        does this "never driven and thus not registered" situation apply to? No one cares about junkers with weeds growing out their sides sitting on blocks on some guy's spread, just as no one cares about that non-working 1901 Luger your great-grandpa owned. But I'd bet that there aren't that many late model cars in good condition that aren't registered.

        As for closed circuit race cars, I don't know much about that world but I'd bet a lot of money that there are all sorts of regulations that apply to them that are probably a lot tougher than ones that apply to street cars, given how fast they go so close to spectators. The analogy there is to assault weapons that can only be used on gun ranges, but still have to be registered.

        What it boils down to is that most of the objections that gun people make to most proposed regulations just don't make any real-world sense, depending more on paranoid fears than legitimate ones.

        "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

        by kovie on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 04:42:56 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Again, PARTLY correct (0+ / 0-)

          The rules and regulations are set by the racing association and by the promoter, not by the government.  Just like the PGA sets the rules for golf tournaments, the NHRA sets the rules for racing, and entries are governed by those rules and accepted by the promoters.  So, by your analogy, the NRA can set the rules as to how AK47's are used at their ranges, how they can be modified and how those modifications determine their competitive class.  None of the rule makers (PGA, NHRA, NRA, care where the equipment comes from, but they do determine the rules which allows what equipment is used in competition).  

          Car analogies are just BAD because they just don't fit when discussing firearms.  And here, I let myself get sucked into the trap!

        •  Quite a lot most likely.... (0+ / 0-)
          And what percentage of cars in working condition does this "never driven and thus not registered" situation apply to?
          I own 2 personally, and there's at least 8 total on our family farm that aren't registered or licensed that are used all the time. Just because you may happen to live where  
          No one cares about junkers with weeds growing out their sides sitting on blocks on some guy's spread
          does not mean that your environment is like everyone elses.
      •  A car that's never driven? (0+ / 0-)

        How did the car get to your property in the first place?  When it was originally sold, I'm pretty sure it had to be registered.

        "Ça c'est une chanson que j'aurais vraiment aimé ne pas avoir écrite." -- Barbara

        by FogCityJohn on Wed Mar 20, 2013 at 10:25:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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