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View Diary: Reid to introduce three-part gun-control bill that includes background checks, at least for now (70 comments)

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  •  To pass it will have more compromise (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:

    From both Democrats and Republicans.

    •  If there is no record-keeping, I will urge... (11+ / 0-)

      ...a vote against it.

      Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

      by Meteor Blades on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 03:50:59 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  even it has other things you want in it? (0+ / 0-)
        •  If the AWB doesn't pass then Schumer's bill (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Glen The Plumber

          with sales records MUST.

        •  It's worthless without the record-keeping. ... (3+ / 0-)

          ...Suppose I buy a gun. And then I sell it to somebody else. I am conscientious and make sure a background check is run. But the guy I sell it to then decides in a few years to sell it. He decides not to do a background check. There is no record of my sale to him. And there is no record of his sale to whoever. So the gun becomes essentially untraceable after I sell it.

          In the case of federally licensed sales, there is a record. And those records must be kept for 20 years. Why then no record for private sales? What is the possible benefit from this double standard other than that it makes it easier for people who are prohibited from buying guns to buy them?

          Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

          by Meteor Blades on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 07:36:46 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  why would you not keep that record? (0+ / 0-)

            Are you rich or reckless?

            I mean I'm a messy as they come, but I can find some records, and if there may be a record that I once had a gun, I surely want the background check and the FFL dealers info and I surely wouldn't sell via cash to a stranger, that would be reckless.

            In this climate I would only sell thru an FFL dfealer with a paper trail we both kept. I would be happy to pay the dealer's commission for many reasons.

            Who knows all the ATF undercover agents by sight?

            They will certainly make stings for the enforcement enhancing publicity. Don't be that guy.

            They need to pass this and not let this get sidetracked by the people on both sides that say 'that won't work'.

            Go ahead, risk selling your $200, 600, 3000 used gun to a friendly stranger and risk arrest and the $20,000-$80,000 in legal fees. It was your money...

            No, this will get a lot of compliance because by and large gun owning citizens will comply...and maybe grumble and threaten to vote for Repubs, but they will largely comply.

            I am very not moved by the 'that won't work' argument, this needs to get passed and tinkered with some other day, this impasse has to go, THAT is the most important thing here, really, politically culturally, whatever, just pass it.

            This machine kills Fascists.

            by KenBee on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 09:42:33 PM PDT

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            •  People check ID for alcohol, there is no record of (0+ / 0-)


              •  and get popped for sales to minors (0+ / 0-)

                and that takes the time of the decoys, their handlers, the chasers/arresting officers, jail time personnel, court and DA support...for beer to 16 year olds?...a worthy cause, yes, but how hard was it?  A bit of effort and coordination yes...

                This machine kills Fascists.

                by KenBee on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 11:55:02 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  Have you heard about the ATF budget?... (1+ / 0-)
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              ...It's $1.1 billion. There are 3,187 special agents and investigators. They spend much of their time checking out explosives cases and some cases of arson as well as big gun traffickers. They spend a lot of time making reports and testifying before grand juries. Last year, there were 16,808,538 background checks of federally licensed dealer sales. Let's suppose that there are only 20% as many private sales. Rounding off, that's 3.4 million. What do you think the chances are of getting caught for selling a gun without a background check to somebody you met at the target range?

              Record-keeping is essential.

              Don't tell me what you believe, show me what you do and I will tell you what you believe.

              by Meteor Blades on Fri Mar 22, 2013 at 12:33:25 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  sure I get the point too, but the FFL's are always (0+ / 0-)

                seriously conservative, the ones I have dealt with, about the evil ATF and their tricky ways.

                Federal enforcement is thin, sure, underfunded and ponderous, and even random, but still, how do you know it's not a sting, they also aren't the only ones that can enforce these laws either I think. How do you know it's not some other law enforcement organization?

                And if they are so thin and ineffective, why are the database records going to help? Does that also produce Magically Funded investigators that a less complete recordkeeping doesn't provide ? I don't think it would be another unfunded feel good federal boondoggle privatized to whoever bids the most for it.

                  You know the california state DOJ says they have a (big number here) of ex felons in illegal gun possession, that they haven't done anything about yet, except make a ginormous list and say they need $24million and five years to process: arrest and confiscate.
                     So they made a list, from an existing calif. database...and only sqweek about being underfunded, demanding ransom even. So, yeah, the whole system is fracked and underfunded, all these 'good ideas' need money, lots of it.
                    Stop the war on everything for a start.

                I see people arrested on drug charges with gun enhancements being the difference between a $50,000 or even $500,000 bail, and being released OR. This is a local city DA. Offenses with no guns..less bail, even released on OR.

                Feds made a big bust up north...finally! after three year investigation...they arrested three growers/possessors, 40 pounds of weed, and five scary black rifles, all semi auto retail store versions.

                Guess what they featured: the scary black guns..this was Kamala Harris standing up and delivering the news...and was laughed at by all, this is the Fed whoopdedoo...the arrest was long in coming, involved many expensive agents and DOJ time, and....the products of this Big Bust, the result of years of hard work???: it was about an ordinary Mendocino or Humboldt County Sheriff solo traffic stop on an average days news.
                    Still, it was the Scary Black Guns that led, as it also is when the city cops or the county cops arrest, it's always the gun charges...even tho they get pled down often.
                  The gun charges make life that much harder for the arrested, why not have that tool in the DA kit?

                  But why would you not have whatever paperwork that your sale would generate? Why would you the good citizen make such a , frankly, stupid calculation that the guy at the range isn't a snitch or a plant? Why even would you want to try and think about it?

                And does the average citizen think about all that statistic when he is making a decision to sell? Hell no, the average citizen doesn't want and can't afford trouble, he will sell thru a FFL, and don't think for a tiny second that the FFL dealers won't seize on such a law to fear monger customers into their stores for just such, this law will help without your perfect database.

                  If you make the calculation that 'they won't catch me'....that sounds just like a criminal talking :>

                'That will work'...somewhat, but better than now!..I say.

                Fix the database issue later, this will generate background checks, how can you say otherwise, so what if criminals will avoid them and continue to be criminals? Just make it harder is all we ever can do.

                It's pretty sad to see people on both sides of the issue mocking the other side quoting 'that won't work'...fuck, let's try it, it has some degree of success, it may help, and it will evolve as a law.

                We can't stop for perfect, that will never ever happen. Work on it, sure, but in the dam meanwhile, pass this, it will help be a step for perfect.

                'It might work.'


                This machine kills Fascists.

                by KenBee on Fri Mar 22, 2013 at 01:19:48 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

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