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View Diary: Obama Does It Again – Speech Humanizes Palestinians To The Cheers Of Israelis (VIDEO) (266 comments)

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  •  If it seems even handed you're viewing from an (6+ / 0-)

    odd perspective.

    It's probably the best we've heard out of an American President on the issue since Carter, but it's still a long way from even handed.

    No "Palestinians and Israelis both have a right to a secure State, and to Self Determination".  No "Settlement in the occupied territories is illegal".

    That's what even handed would sound like.  We've been so far from it for so long that bias without venom starts to sound like equanimity.

    income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

    by JesseCW on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 05:27:14 PM PDT

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    •  That's something to say in negotiations, (4+ / 0-)

      not in the speech to get them started.  They're also abstractions, not likely to change minds.  An Israeli audience has built up resistance to international law arguments, and God knows how much Sheldon Adelson's newspapers have poisoned it about Obama.  Part of the diary is the speech is not just moving and wise, but politically savvy.  I agree.  

      Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

      by Loge on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 06:49:24 PM PDT

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      •  If they're abstractions not likely to change minds (0+ / 0-)

        then the whole exercise is pointless.

        It's not an Israeli audience he's primarily addressing, in any event.

        income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

        by JesseCW on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 07:38:36 PM PDT

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        •  He did call for statehood at various points, (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Larsstephens

          for what thats worth.  I'm not suggesting minds won't be changed at all, the question is how, rhetorically.  whoever the audience, a hectoring approach, even if basically right, doesn't work.  There's nothing wrong with saying explicitly the occupation is illegal, but saying it's not in Israel's self-interest cuts thru any lingering debate or denial on that issue, and doesn't leave open the space to rationalize a violation on the same self-interest grounds.  this approach works better on the American "pro-Israel" audience, too.  It's all about finding shared starting premises.  

          Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

          by Loge on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 08:57:03 PM PDT

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          •  He insisted that Israel must retain a veto over (0+ / 0-)

            the recognition of a Palestinian state.

            That's no different that Bush's positions, or Clinton's.

            When you recognize something as a right, you don't say "But that guy totally has the freedom to take it away from you, 'cause we think he's awesome".

            income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

            by JesseCW on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 09:05:20 PM PDT

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            •  I don't think I suggested (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Larsstephens, Gator Keyfitz

              there was a major policy change.  I do not, however, recall any other President speaking of an emotional bond with Palestinians in such stark terms.

              Right now, the process is stalled, and it's not crazy to believe a unilateral declaration is counterproductive to all that has to happen to make the state something more than paper.  Questions of what can be deduced from the nature of a right, or second-order morality, are less pertinent than what a critical mass of Israelis might agree to.  Maybe not cosmically, the goal of a President isn't to get people to have already adopted a certain worldview, however compelling.  And as the thrust of domestic criticism will be that he went too far, he got heckled, etc., this is a weak ground to criticize the speech.  

              Difficult, difficult, lemon difficult.

              by Loge on Thu Mar 21, 2013 at 09:25:53 PM PDT

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