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  •  history is replete (7+ / 0-)

    with examples of such efforts failing- sometimes disastrously. i wish such a seemingly obvious answer would work, but it wouldn't. i think the answer will come from outside politics and then transform politics.

    The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

    by Laurence Lewis on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 07:18:04 PM PDT

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    •  Transformation of politics usually requires crisis (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Shahryar

      To set off explosive change.  I have flirted with the idea that radical change requires the level of crisis which creates the consensus that the Constitution is irreparably damaged and needs to be replaced.  Such a crisis will require accepting short-term suffering as a necessary cost for long-term good.  I don't think a painless transition is possible and there is no way that the lower classes are going to suffer more than the upper classes (unless the transition involves rounding up the rich and executing them, something I do not support).

      How does one precipitate a crisis?  Do we need another Civil War?  Should we embrace the idea of refusing to compromise on the debt ceiling so that the government defaults and create economic chaos if the Republicans don't fundamentally change their party?

      •  i think taking a stand (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Shahryar, marty marty

        and forcing the republicans to own their own manufactured crises would be a good step. but i'm not at all into the idea of empowering the crazed.

        The cold passion for truth hunts in no pack. -Robinson Jeffers

        by Laurence Lewis on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 07:27:45 PM PDT

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        •  You would first have to acknowledge (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Shahryar, blueoasis, PhilJD

          that these crises weren't manufactured by rethugs alone. Village dems will never do as you are suggesting.

          I think the party would have to split... the Clinton Wing and the Warren Wing perhaps. What is rotten on the dem side - quite a bit of it, I fear - will have to be excised.

          I don't know if that can actually happen. I'm not by nature an optimist.

          The law, in its majestic equality, gives the rich as well as the poor the right to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to eat dumpster donuts. - With apologies to Anatole France

          by chuckvw on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 09:17:17 PM PDT

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      •  So is this a Political Shock Doctrine??? (0+ / 0-)

        Without geometry, life is pointless. And blues harmonica players suck.

        by blindcynic on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 08:00:52 PM PDT

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        •  No it is a continuation of The Shock Doctrine. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          GayHillbilly

          Those in government don't give up - they keep doing the same thing and once it works for them and they get away with it - it contiues.

        •  I'm inspired by punctuated equilibria (0+ / 0-)

          The theory of Niles Eldridge and Stephen Jay Gould that evolution tends to follow a path of stasis, with little change, interrupted by short periods of rapid change.

          I believe that most of the time, the best you can hope for is small, incremental reform.  Occasionally, situations arise that lead to massive change.  Can these situations be manufactured or do you just have to sit and wait and hope you are in a position to do something?

    •  I think you are wrong (3+ / 0-)
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      BigAlinWashSt, priceman, Shahryar

      At some point you have to make a stand or they will never get the message. What we put in another fake Dem that reinforces evry issue we are against?

      Blanche Lincoln was a start my senator Mary Landrieu should be next in line. Until they learn that if and until they follow the peoples will they are not welcome nothing will change.

      You know as well as I do that even self proclaimed republicans beleive in and support our stances. The only way that can be made obvious is allow the destruction they desire. Maybe not you but me and many I know can't hurt any worse at this point and for my grands I'm willing to suffer a little more

      There are no sacred cows.

      by LaEscapee on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 10:18:53 PM PDT

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    •  Right. That's why Dixiecrats are still a huge (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      PhilJD

      wing of our Party.

      Refusing to vote for them totally didn't work.

      Jeebus.  

      income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

      by JesseCW on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 12:47:18 AM PDT

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