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View Diary: A Pope Too Good To Be True (259 comments)

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  •  Social Mobility in Bergoglio's Power (5+ / 0-)

    Bergoglio's been talking this "minister to the poor" talk for a long time. How much less poor, or better off in any way have the poor actually become during his rule locally in Argentina? In his own parish? In the country at large? How much of that was his work, or despite him?

    Crime rates (especially rape and banking), teenage pregnancy, school graduation, literacy - all the measurable sins that keep people poor. What's Bergoglio's actual track record?

    "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

    by DocGonzo on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 08:38:48 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  The items you mentioned would seem to me to be (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      the result of government success or failure. I seriously doubt any progressive improvements would be attributable to Bergoglio.

      •  Powerful Church (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Betty Clermont, Laconic Lib, liz

        The Church is powerful in Argentina. If the Church wants to reduce poverty, the government cooperates.

        Or it doesn't, and the Church takes a lot of hits for opposing the government's poverty policies.

        Or no large institution can help the poor. I don't believe that, as I see education, one of the biggest businesses of both the Church and governments, reducing poverty. When the policies are correct, which is far from impossible to achieve. In at least moderate success, especially when starting with a lot of poverty and ignorance. As there is in much of Argentina, expecially in the parish Bergoglio ran on his way up.

        I'm not looking for whether a policy was "progressive" or anything else. I'm looking for whether poverty reduced or was at least better mitigated (eg. more effective affordable healtcare, not just soup kitchens). And what Bergoglio's role was in it. If active in ineffective or nonexistent policies, or inactive or opposed to effective policies, there's our answer.

        This is an objective measurement of Bergoglio's actual committment to helping the poor, rather than the complicity in poverty that superficially helps, but only just enough to perpetuate it.

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

        by DocGonzo on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 09:32:33 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Argentina is one of the most Catholic countries... (8+ / 0-) the world and Latin America. And yet, it's statistics on income and wealth inequality are nothing to brag about (even when compared to Uruguay next door, the least religious country in Latin America).

      Argentina, this bastion of Catholicism, was the epicenter of the Dirty War, the worst atrocity in the New World after the Native American massacres and genocides and slavery.  30,000+ people were disappeared, many dumped into the sea from planes still alive.

      So if Catholicism was effective at dealing with poverty or human rights Argentina would be a light in the darkness rather than the darkness itself.

      Daily Kos an oasis of truth. Truth that leads to action.

      by Shockwave on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 09:09:33 AM PDT

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    •  Bergoglio failed to recognize the achievements of (3+ / 0-)

      the liberal Argentine government:

      Making nice? Argentina's Kirchner and Pope Francis meet in Rome

      Pope Francis has been heralded for improving the Argentine Roman Catholic Church's links with the downtrodden, and he has said that as pope he wants "a church for the poor." But in 2009, when he criticized the level of poverty in this South American country, he failed to recognize the steps Kirchnerism has made to curb poverty – such as heavy spending on social welfare and a universal child benefit plan – something believed to have angered Ms. Kirchner.

      American exceptionalism is America's road to perdition.

      by Alexandre on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 10:57:08 AM PDT

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    •  President Obama has enacted policies to. (0+ / 0-)

      ....better redistribute wealth in this country.

      Yet, the median income is down from 2008 to the present.

      Change takes time.

      And I'd rather have Pope Francisco leading the Catholic Church than someone who hasn't spent so much time with the desamparados.

      Learn about Centrist Economics, learn about Robert Rubin's Hamilton Project.

      by PatriciaVa on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 03:22:26 PM PDT

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      •  2009 (0+ / 0-)

        Obama wasn't president until 2009. And his policies didn't have any effect except to slow the collapse to a halt before reversing it before 2010.

        Bergoglio had decades to change his parish, and Argentina. How about in his parish?

        I don't think you're talking about economics, math, facts or logic. I think you're just hugging a new pope.

        "When the going gets weird, the weird turn pro." - HST

        by DocGonzo on Sun Mar 24, 2013 at 07:55:32 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  The Church uses the poor as its raison d'etre (0+ / 0-)

        When the Catholic Church shakes off its luxury and lives among the poor sharing their lives and helping them escape poverty then I'll pay attention.

      •  I agree. Francis' simplicity is a vast improvement (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        over Benedict's love of conspicuous excess in his garments.
        I also agree that Francis' gestures towards the poor are a better inspiration for all of us than his predecessor's.

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