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View Diary: High School Graduates are Doomed! (90 comments)

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  •  Yeah, 50k people manage to take 8 mln jobs. (3+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    Roadbed Guy, karmsy, Ian H

    They must be superhuman.

    •  Sure, methinks a reasonable (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      karmsy, FG

      argument that these workers are not needed - however, OTOH, they really are a tempest in a teapot - if the economy were strong, they'd not even be noticed.

      •  All I know is that I'm in direct competition with (8+ / 0-)

        the H1Bs, since my clearance is useless without DOD positions for me. Every damn team lead I seem to speak to is Indian. And worst of all, American companies give away jobs to foreigners, then turn around and tell us, "You need to accept huge pay cuts so we can be globally competitive." Against the very jobs they've given away. I'm sure Congress will ride to the rescue any second now.

        •  Foreigners can get security clearances (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          karmsy, Ian H, tikkun

          for defense work?

          Really??

          •  Not yet, they can't, which is why DOD work would (5+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            zinger99, karmsy, ScienceMom, Ian H, tikkun

            reduce the pool of competition for me. The day foreign nationals are allowed to work on defense, I'll be toast. And since money trumps EVERYTHING, that day is coming.

            •  On a personal level for you that sucks (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              karmsy, Ian H

              but more broadly, welcome to the world that most all of the rest of us (with the possible additional exceptions of MDs and lawyers) live in!

              •  [Snaps gum] Chawmed, Oi'm shoo-uh. (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                karmsy, Ian H

                I'm lucky, in a way, in that I can survive on my savings for a while, barring illness or whatever. I have a friend who's a few years older and has been out of work for a year. He says he's applied to numerous positions that were a perfect match, only to be passed over. If he can't find work near home, he will have to look elsewhere and send money home.

              •  Pretty severe lawyer glut (5+ / 0-)

                these days, and that's persisted for decades. I clearly remember picking up a magazine article in the 80s (I was in high school or college) about how lawyers, with the exception of graduates of top schools, with top gpa's, were basically a dime a dozen. That hasn't improved.

                Sure, you can be lucky, and connected, and end up with a reasonable lawyer job.

                More likely, these days, you'll just graduate from law school penniless, in debt, and your degree will be worthless.

                It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

                by karmsy on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 09:45:23 AM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  that's extremely sad! (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  karmsy
                •  More substantially, yeah I've heard that (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  karmsy, Ian H

                  this is actually more of a software "problem" than an outsourcing issue, however.

                  In that services that previously required a live lawyer can now be substititued by a $19.95 DVD that you pick up at Walmart.

                  Oh the humanity.

                  •  A few years ago, (3+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Roadbed Guy, Ian H, Bright

                    a friend of mine lost her job as a corporate attorney. In the long months she was unemployed, she considered signing on with an organization she heard about that was "a hybrid between a law firm and a temp agency." They pimp you out by the hour, to clients who need it, in other words.

                    I fear this is the new standard.

                    It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

                    by karmsy on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 11:46:10 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Yeah, that sucks (3+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      karmsy, Ian H, FG

                      I actually know several lawyers, they are my wife's friend/acquaintances.

                      And quite frankly, having come to know them, they are not totally evil

                      OTOH, I don't see how they get off being totally miffed if they don't make $100K with "only" 19 years of education.

                      the context being that in science, with 22 years of education (e.g., the average length to a PhD) the salary for a post-doc is something like $37K what with the flooding of the country with foreign post-docs.

                      Of course, with the meager NIH support for science these days, the entire enterprise would be shut down w/o this source of cheap labor . ..

                      •  Time was, (4+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Roadbed Guy, Ian H, AoT, freesia

                        you were told to "take lots of math courses in school and become an engineer, or go into the sciences." This was supposed to "make your degree worth more" when you graduated. Hah!

                        What nobody wants to discuss, in the aftermath of the most recent recession, is that the job market has been getting steadily sicker for a long time. Decades. Following every "recovery" we've seen since 1980, there are significantly fewer living-wage jobs than existed before the downturn.

                        It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

                        by karmsy on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 01:04:40 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Perhaps ironically, the most best paying (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          karmsy

                          jobs these days are in the trades.

                          For example, I have a cousin-thrice-removed (if I'm getting the relationship correct) who quit school in the ninth grade and now works in environmental oil remediation (whatever that means) and makes something like $180K a year in the Bakken oil fields.

                    •  My Lawyers Are Always (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      karmsy

                      independent contractors.  They maintain their own offices and staff.  They don't make a fortune but they make more than most people in the town and they are respected members of the community.  I don't use software because I find most real legal work requires skill, close attention to detail and actual work.

                      Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

                      by tikkun on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 05:39:20 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                •  At least in VT, there's a path to the Bar (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Roadbed Guy, karmsy, Ian H

                  ... that doesn't require law school. Too bad other states don't have that option.

              •  Lawyers have some of the highest unemployment (0+ / 0-)

                rates in the entire country and also have the highest student loans.

                Which seems like it should be a very bad combination for people supporting the status quo. Lot's of lawyers with nothing to do and a reason to fight.

              •  The skilled trades make money (0+ / 0-)

                and the skilled trades can't easily be shipped abroad.  Unfortunately most locals in my area have almost no training in the skilled trades.  Those who put out their shingles frequently don't bother to show up for the bidding process.  A first rate master plasterer, electrician, or stone mason can get full time work in our area with the ability to demand premium rates.  But to demand such money you have to be damn good at what you do and better than the competition, and you have to show up.

                Newt 2012. Sociopath, adulterer, hypocrite, Republican.

                by tikkun on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 05:34:04 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

      •  That's basically my point. There are pretty (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Roadbed Guy, Ian H

        significant abuses in the program but it's a very small program that primarily applies to IT.

        •  That's kinda a tough one (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          FG, Ian H

          since these types of jobs tend to be entirely outsourced rather easily (although not entirely wisely).

          So, if one looks at the over impact on the economy, it is probably better to have these jobs in the USA rather than overseas (you know, there needs to be a janitor to clean the building, or whatever  . .. . .who probably is NOT on a H1 visa).

          OTOH, I can see how the IT/computer types being mightily annoyed about all this since it impacts them disproportionately.

          •  If we deal with the abuses of the program by (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            karmsy

            the likes of Wipro and add a real requirement to first recruit in US, it can be a useful program. Right now it's mostly a mess.
            Outsourcing is a much bigger problem for IT. There are shortages of highly qualified people in some areas that can be filled thru H1B or a similar program. Every country in the world has some sort of work visa program and anyone suggesting that US shouldn't have one is simply not serious.

            •  I tipped your comment, (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              FG, Ian H

              not because I necessarily agree with it, but because you spur needed discussion.

              What about these "labor shortages in IT"? Is the lack of well-trained American-born talent for real, or is it just that employers don't want to pay a living wage, so they recruit H1Bs to come on board cheaper?

              I'm pretty open-minded/ill-informed, myself. Fascinating arguments to be made either way, I'm sure. But, as ill-informed as I am, I confess to being more swayed by the arguments about the general hostility of American employers to labor. Of course they want to get the maximum bang for their buck, to the great cost of our society.

              It's here they got the range/ and the machinery for change/ and it's here they got the spiritual thirst. --Leonard Cohen

              by karmsy on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 09:55:48 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Both. And it's not always IT. H1B is also used in (3+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                karmsy, Ian H, AoT

                academia and in other industries (pharma, biotech). In some cases you need a person with very specific qualifications and US citizens with these qualifications are simply not available. It's almost never the case with IT but it happens in other fields. More often the company needs a person with a specific set of skills and they are not willing to spend a long time training someone. And of course there are cases where it's simply used to hire cheaper labor. And the interesting thing is that H1B law is written in a way that if there were labor unions in the workplace they would have a first crack at any job. But of course there are no unions in IT.

              •  REPLY: (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Ian H, tikkun

                Four years ago during the Great Recession, representatives of many of the nation’s most powerful corporations attended the 2009 Strategic Outsourcing Conference to talk about how to send more American jobs overseas.

                Conference organizers polled the more than 70 senior executives who attended the conference about the behavior of their companies in response to the recession. The majority said their companies increased outsourcing.

                SOURCE:
                http://www.conference-board.org/...

                READ: America: The Next "Emerging Market"?
                http://www.dailykos.com/...

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