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View Diary: Navy Now Arguing Against New Bajillion Dollar Aircraft Carriers (65 comments)

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  •  Add another $10 billion per carrier air wing (15+ / 0-)

    Those planes aren't cheap. PLUS at least 1 nuclear attack sub with every carrier group, PLUS all the additional ships needed to escort and screen and tend each and every single carrier - it's a mistake to think of a carrier as a single ship, you HAVE to pay for the whole task force. And every mission 'cruise' a task force goes out on, the carrier air wing is performing almost constant training missions, burning millions of gallons of jet fuel, and usually crashing and wrecking out at least 2 of those expensive planes.

    But it's pretty clear that due to well-directed fear and the MIC, our country has chosen guns over butter. Enjoy watching those steel islands float by as we huddle in our cardboard shacks in the rain, starving and penniless, because at least we'll be SAFE!

    "We are not going to give up on destroying the health care system for the American people." - future President Paul Ryan.

    by Fordmandalay on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 07:39:47 AM PDT

    •  So, what is the cost of one "Carrier Task Force" (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      mookins, ichibon

      over its lifetime, give or take, assuming that all the parts and pieces can last 20 years give or take....

      I think we have seven "Carrier Task Forces" at the moment, don't we?

      Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

      by OregonOak on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 08:48:00 AM PDT

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      •  20 years? (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mookins

        I served mostly on the Ranger, which lasted 36 years, but also did some time on the Nimitz in 1979, and it's still around.  Was to be assigned to the Midway, but that bucket was too old even for me at 49 years.

        I am not religious, and did NOT say I enjoyed sects.

        by trumpeter on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 09:13:44 AM PDT

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        •  Averaging...planes, ships, maintenence.. etc (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          mookins, ichibon

          Given that these big ships are refitted and essentially "rebuilt" every decade or so. And re-planed, re-hydrauliced, re-engined, nuclear reactored, re- well, everything from pots and pans to catapult launch systems and elevators,  etc etc. I think just for back of the envelope figuring, maybe 20 years is the life span of most of the gear.

          Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

          by OregonOak on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 09:26:34 AM PDT

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          •  More than that. (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            cynndara

            The older ships I have been on were easily 65% original parts.  And with Nukes, the plant remains mostly original - it's just fittings and fuel that are replaced.  You can't re-build reactors or replace them in ships efficiently, so that generally determines when a ship is retired - when the plant gets too old.

            I am not religious, and did NOT say I enjoyed sects.

            by trumpeter on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 12:15:56 PM PDT

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            •  444 million per year per carrier.. (0+ / 0-)

              not including the nine other ships and subs in the task force, which probably amounts to another 500 million or so per year. Those are GAO figures from 1993, the only numbers I could find. (I wonder why??)

              Lets figure 1 billion a year. OH! And the 80 jets of all varieties... ummm... 50 million each. Another half billion. 1.5 Billion per Battle group, and I dont know if this includes gas and nuclear fuel. Add a bunch for that.

              We have 11 of these, and this means 16 Billion dollars per year, by the stats available for 11 Carrier Battle Groups.

               So, that doesnt figure personnel, training or retirement and medical. There are 3000 people on each carrier, and a like number on each of the rest of the nine ships. Lets just double our figure to 32 Billion per year.

              Thats what I mean by Estimating. You dont have to get to the precise NUMBER, you have to know, give or take, how many 10's of billions or 100 billions you are spending. About 3X10 Billion would be my best guess, not 100X10 Billion or .5X10 Billion. Any time you want to argue a point, it should have the effect of moving the needle into another order of magnitude, or you are merely pettifogging the issue.

              Now we should decide, as Bill Gates former SecDef says (2010), "Do we really need 11 of these when other countries cant even field ONE? Good question.

              Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

              by OregonOak on Tue Mar 26, 2013 at 09:33:20 AM PDT

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              •  Ummm.. (0+ / 0-)
                There are 3000 people on each carrier, and a like number on each of the rest of the nine ships. Lets just double our figure to 32 Billion per year.

                Thats what I mean by Estimating.

                Ah.  Your estimates are completely wrong on these numbers.  How far off on the others?

                Modern carriers have a crew of 5 to 6 thousand.  Escort ships average 150-500 each, depending on the size of the ship.

                I am not religious, and did NOT say I enjoyed sects.

                by trumpeter on Tue Mar 26, 2013 at 10:16:47 AM PDT

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                •  Okay... then revise my estimate... (0+ / 0-)

                  up or down, or in your critique, both up and down. Does it change the number by a magnitude of order plus or minus? I dont think so. We are still talking about close to, plus or minus, 3 Billion per year per task force, correct?

                  This is the way economists think when they are coming up with figures to measure the impact of any given huge expense. It gets you close enough to make a decision without getting lost in the grass nitpicking on hundreds or thousands of dollars or even millions here or there.

                  Figures don't lie, but liars do figure-Mark Twain

                  by OregonOak on Tue Mar 26, 2013 at 10:28:39 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

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