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View Diary: RKBA: Some good gun news (253 comments)

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  •  40% (estimated) of gun sales are unrecorded (5+ / 0-)

    private sales. Since there is no gun registration, there is no enforcement mechanism to make those sales comply with a UBC.
    And clearly, since there are thousands of gun deaths and maimings committed by criminals with guns, the current requirement of background checks is not preventing criminals from getting guns.
    Putting money into this collected database is a waste, that money and effort should be directed at registering ALL guns and creating a method for recording transfers of ownership. Then, background checks can be effective, otherwise, it's a waste of resources.
    And a win for the NRA, since this is exactly Wayne LaPierre's answer to 12/14.

    If I ran this circus, things would be DIFFERENT!

    by CwV on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 09:25:50 AM PDT

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    •  Most, if not all RKBA supporters here support... (20+ / 0-)

      ...universal background checks.  Just as they think the NRA in general, and LaPierre in particular, are insane.  All of which you know, of course.

      And regarding registration, it ain't gonna happen.  Even Joe Biden thinks it's a stupid idea.

    •  worthless, made-up "statistic" (19+ / 0-)

      The 40% figure was from a survey of a few hundred people, done over twenty years ago.

      Things are more like they are now than they've ever been before...

      by Tom Seaview on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 09:31:04 AM PDT

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    •  Wayne LaPierre (7+ / 0-)

      won't even support background checks being made universal.

      And more reliable statistics exist to show that a large number of guns used in crimes can be traced to initial licensed dealers who are problem children, ie, they sell way more that get used in crimes than other sellers.

      http://content.thirdway.org/...

      http://www.washingtonpost.com/...

      are two examples of reports.

      Suppliers can be caught this way and they are an important part of the equation of guns ending up in the hands of criminals.

      Gun violence isn't a one size fits all issue, we should be looking at many changes to improve the overall control of illegal arms, arms used in crimes against strangers (the mugger or carjacker, etc scenario), and the family gun being misused and abused in domestic violence,accidental shootings etc.

      •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Robobagpiper

        He won't support the Schumer bill, that's for sure.  And the NRA won't comment on legislation that doesn't exist.  However, at the end of the day, NRA will get behind universal background checks when two things occur.  First, NICS is made to work or is replaced by something that does.  Second, all vestiges of the informal registry that have occurred before and after the Brady period at the federal and state level must go.

        NRA will probably be a bit more flexible on the second point provided federal law preempts state requirements for future recordkeeping.

        When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

        by Patrick Costighan on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 11:35:02 PM PDT

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        •  I have to disagree on one point. (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Robobagpiper, Patrick Costighan
          And the NRA won't comment on legislation that doesn't exist.
          They've gone on and on, ad nauseum, about the UN Small Arms Treaty, even before there was even proposed language to be debated.

          They also commented on DiFi's new AWB before the actual language was released.

          In fact, they have quite a habit of doing exactly this, when it suits them to do so.

          Yes, I often dress as a pirate. Your point?

          by theatre goon on Tue Mar 26, 2013 at 04:42:50 AM PDT

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          •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            theatre goon

            I should've have been more specific.  On the issue of background checks, which could mean anything to anyone, NRA has refused to comment.  NRA certainly has commented on DiFi's AWB throughout its various on paper or in imagination forms since the last one expired, and they did comment throughout the Programme of Action prior to 61/89's adoption.

            When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

            by Patrick Costighan on Tue Mar 26, 2013 at 05:45:58 AM PDT

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        •  the NRA's political pressure (0+ / 0-)

          is why the NICS doesn't work well, those sellers aren't investigated more thoroughly and the information hasn't been used to figure out how to cut off a major spigot in the arms to criminals trade.

          NRA spokespersons are commenting, they have not come out in support of universal background checks now that it might actually happen.   They say instead, just use what you have now like it is supposed to be used, when they have done their dead level best to undercut it through their pet congressmen.

          •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            noway2

            You mean the NRA's political pressure is why backdoor gun registration is incomplete.

            When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

            by Patrick Costighan on Tue Mar 26, 2013 at 06:39:16 AM PDT

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            •  I meant what I said (0+ / 0-)

              that prior statements about supporting background checks disappeared as soon as it looked like people might support that.   That NRA spends a fortune with congress to prevent investigation, research and enforcement of the existing laws.  Liars and crooks supporting a for profit industry at the expense of tens of thousands of human beings every year.  I meant it, I'll say it again if you spread any more pablum over what I said.

              •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                How do these liars and crooks in a for profit industry make money off of aftermarket resales?

                When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

                by Patrick Costighan on Tue Mar 26, 2013 at 07:56:02 AM PDT

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                •  priced ammunition lately (0+ / 0-)

                  other add ons,  and the next gun for many who sold a gun in the aftermarket.  I used to ride cutting horses, one trainer said he never minded giving people free rides on his horses,   because enough would be hooked and would buy one.   And then another one and another one.  Demand generates demand.

                  •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                    Americans lawfully expend billions of rounds of ammunition annually.  Homeland Security alone has an IDIQ for 1.6 billion rounds over five years.   The scale of criminal abuse of firearms is five orders of magnitude smaller, so I doubt ammunition manufacturers are turning a profit off of criminal activity.

                    There are 20 million NICS checks annually, which is a good proxy for gun purchases, which is two orders of magnitude larger than the criminal abuse of firearms in a year.  Again, minuscule.  

                    When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

                    by Patrick Costighan on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 06:41:45 AM PDT

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                    •  you didn't ask if the licensed seller's (0+ / 0-)

                      sold things legally or illegally to make money because of aftermarket sales.   You asked how they profited from aftermarket sales.   Because they have more things to sell to more people, which you then proved.  Thank you.   My point was that NRA lies to protect those profits, whether legal or illegally gained.   What they say they support, they back off of,  they lie about how much they have stopped the enforcement of the law, and then claim there is enough law on the books if only somebody would enforce it.   You shill about the same way they do.

                      •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                        Stop lying.  Whatever retail sales of ammunition there are to the prohibited amounts to noise in the signal, as I've proved.  Your charge that gun and ammo makers profit off of criminal activity is baseless.

                        When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

                        by Patrick Costighan on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 07:40:21 AM PDT

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                        •  still not my point (0+ / 0-)

                          it is not that sellers set out to profit or not profit at all. My claim was the NRA lies to bolster the profits of the industry, makes false claims about what they support and then when push comes to shove, lies some more and backs off.  You have not once addressed that very real behavior.   You keep trying to divert from my actual point.   And gun makers like anyone else who sell a product that can be sold in a black market, misused to perpetrate a crime, etc., still profit.  It isn't their goal, but in this case, they fund a lobbying group to stop all reforms, even investigations of sellers whose guns contribute to a significant percentage of crime.   Killed in Congress with lobbyists money.    That it is a huge or tiny amount of their profits is irrelevant to the solution, it is a huge contributor to the losses of crimes that other people bear and needs to be addressed.

                          So how long have you been an ardent Democrat and what brings you to Dkos?

            •  As much as I despise the NRA's foray into non gun (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Patrick Costighan

              politics, they are still one of the most formidable forces standing between the rights gun owners and those who wish to take those rights away.

              •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                But as they become tied more and more to the strident right, we'll start to see another dip in gun ownership rates.  That's not something we can afford.  The legislative and judicial victories of the past decade are tenuous, and the NRA risks becoming an undue hinderance to safeguarding hard won gains.  Unfortunately, we can't change the NRA or replace it without neutralizing its raison d'etre, and that can't happen without the muscle the NRA brings to the fight.  Catch-22.

                When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

                by Patrick Costighan on Tue Mar 26, 2013 at 08:00:24 AM PDT

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                •  qwerty (2+ / 0-)

                  The long term and short term objectives are different.  In the short run, we (left-oriented 2A supporters) are in the unfortunate position of fighting segments of our own party.  Ideally, the D party would adopt the platform of supporting all rights, including those enshrined by the second.  Unfortunately, this won't happen quickly, though as gun ownership continues to rise and the face of it changes things might evolve this way.  In the short run, the best we can likely hope for is to make gun control an unpalatable issue that costs elections.  In this regard, we have a couple of advantages.  One is the NRA which is a formidable lobbying organization.  Two is withholding votes or even outright defection and with roughly 40% of the D party being gun owners this is a significant amount of power.   Lets face it, what is stopping gun restrictions is the threat of lost elections.  We haven't, yet, gotten to the point where 2A rights are recognized as fundamental as other partisan issues, but that too will change.  Until it does, this threat needs to remain over the D politician's heads.

                  In the long run we have a couple of different options. Option 1 is to join the NRA and work to change it from within.  The objective in this path would be to make the biggest gun rights organization non political and in turn make gun rights a non political issue.  This approach works to stop those who are really indifferent to the 2A but desire gun restrictions only to oppose the R's.   Option 2, is to form other gun rights groups with a different focus, thereby making D politicians stand up and take notice of the force that we represent.  In either case, the result is that the Liberal gun owner gets a bigger political voice.  

    •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Robobagpiper

      a href="http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/341838/40-percent-myth-letters">40 percent (links to NR, unfortunately, but for some reason that's the venue Cook and Ludwig, originators of the figure, choose to address this matter) is derived from a survey conducted over a two year period twenty years ago.  No one knows what the split is between private and retail sales in any given year, or what it has been overall.

      When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

      by Patrick Costighan on Mon Mar 25, 2013 at 11:29:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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