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View Diary: Abbreviated pundit roundup: Marriage equality and the Supreme Court (84 comments)

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  •  worth noting of argument of 1 man & 1 woman (13+ / 0-)

    that it is historically wrong

    and given that so many who oppose marriage equality are using religiously-based arguments they never really deal with the acceptance of polygyny in the Hebrew Bible.

    They ignore religions or cultures which tolerate or even encourage multiple marriages.

    And of course basing arguments on the question of child-bearing fall apart the moment you allow for marriage between heterosexual couples incapable of child birth

    "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

    by teacherken on Tue Mar 26, 2013 at 04:49:28 AM PDT

    •  It was only about 140 years ago (4+ / 0-)

      that in the Mormon Church and in Utah, polygamy was legal (one man and several underage girls).
      Only about 40 years ago, "one man and one woman" meant "one WHITE man and WHITE woman" or " one BLACK man and BLACK woman".
      We're evolving.

      “We are not a nation that says ‘don’t ask, don’t tell.’ We are a nation that says ‘out of many, we are one.’” -Barack Obama

      by skohayes on Tue Mar 26, 2013 at 06:01:05 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  I am against polygamy in all forms ... (0+ / 0-)

      ... and I think that Liberals/Progressives ought to be as well.

      I am not sure if you were making an argument for polygamy so I will spare you my rant against it but I just thought I would get that out there.

      Please do not be alarmed. We are about to engage... the nozzle.

      by Terrapin on Tue Mar 26, 2013 at 06:44:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Why are you so against it? I knew a family like (0+ / 0-)

        this once and they were not Mormon either. A man and his wife together fell in love with another woman and accepted her as an equal part of their relationship. It was my understanding, through my own platonic friendship with the first wife,  that the love between the man and his second wife was physical as well as spiritual, or basically as any other man and woman would love each other.  The love between the two wives was a best friend type of love, but the first wife wanted this other woman to live with her and her husband and was glad for it. I see nothing at all wrong with it, as long as all adults are happy with the relationship and no one is being harmed.

          I saw them last about 5 years ago and the threesome were very happy together and raising two children....one from each woman.

        We must not judge any relationships and loves any human has for another, again as long as we are talking about adult relationships and no one is forced into it nor harmed by it.  Even in the case of religion, as long as it is still an adult choice....then I say let them be.

        •  That is a lovely anecdote... (0+ / 0-)

          ... of a very lucky man.  What man would not want such an arrangement?  In fact, most men will try very hard to get that arrangement.  And the wealthiest among them will get it and then some.  Bluntly stated: women will distribute themselves towards those that can support them in the resource-dependent business of child-rearing.  There are very few examples of cultures where monogamy elevates women in any way. The vast majority of cultures that practice polygamy - and the vast majority of women living in those cultures - are degraded by the practice.  As are the men who are unable to find a partner.

          Perhaps in a theoretical sense there is a logic to it but it has not shown itself in practice.

          I have no problem risking the label of hypocrite if I fight to expand monogamy to LGBT but draw the line against polygamy.

          Please do not be alarmed. We are about to engage... the nozzle.

          by Terrapin on Tue Mar 26, 2013 at 08:29:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  A lot of men might not want such an arrangement. (0+ / 0-)

            A lot of women as well.  Again, if it is adult choice, then it is adult choice and no one is harmed by it.  

            When you talk of other countries and women being harmed...that is entirely different.  It is then force, and not choice any longer.  There are laws against that and should be upheld.

            However, it is hypocritical to say that polygamy as a choice, when it is a true choice, is wrong simply because you don't like the idea of it.  If a grown man and several women wish to share...who is to say that is not okay?  What if several women and a man wanted to do that same...would you say no to that too?

            Women can be strong enough to decide such things without always considering their bank account.  There are plenty of women who make their own money and are just as capable of supporting themselves without the help of any man.  

            In the case of my friend, she was a teacher and the other woman a dentist.  He was in construction of some kind and so I doubt money played a role in their relationship, as far as the women were concerned.

      •  If you study anthropology, it makes (0+ / 0-)

        good sense in some cultures, especially where resources are limited.

        Sexual expression in plants and animals can be expressed differently, depending on the environment.  Many flowering plants have evolved to produce more male or female gametes when the environment disfavors one of the other.

        •  Thank you for your plant-based argument. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Stude Dude

          Please do not be alarmed. We are about to engage... the nozzle.

          by Terrapin on Tue Mar 26, 2013 at 07:33:07 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You're welcome (0+ / 0-)

            Also my morning's share of typos, but I think it still makes sense to those who read it.

          •  how about polyandry (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            DSPS owl

            where one woman has multiple husbands? that also exists in other nations

            why do you assume our cultural values are superior?  After all, have not signed the international convention on Children's rights, and our level of capital punishment puts us in a category with Iran, Iraq, China and I think Somalia, while every member of the European Union and Canada have banned it

            "We didn't set out to save the world; we set out to wonder how other people are doing and to reflect on how our actions affect other people's hearts." - Pema Chodron

            by teacherken on Tue Mar 26, 2013 at 09:35:22 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I assume no such thing. If I did then ... (0+ / 0-)

              ... I would not be so eager to expand access to monogamy.  Or end capital punishment or any number of other things.  I simply remain unconvinced that polygamy or polyandry will do anything except degrade those that enter into it.

              Perhaps there is a wealth of data that contradicts my beliefs and if so then I will reconsider.  Until then I see no reason to see poly-anything as a goal for the Progressive movement.

              Please do not be alarmed. We are about to engage... the nozzle.

              by Terrapin on Tue Mar 26, 2013 at 10:49:45 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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