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  •  A rabid sheep, I've been one for years. (1+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    freerad

    Forgive the old joke.

    I think the danger here isn't so much because of crazed killers as sheep that want to be a part time sheepdog for free. They don't want to do the training, they want their gun always to be ready, but do not want to be constantly vigilant of a nearby gun. Someone else should step in to solve their problems with gun ownership.

    1. Keep your gun.
    2. Do not shoot off your gun by accident.

    If gun owners just did these two things gun deaths would be lessened by many. See the GunFAIL diaries. Maybe we could get GunFAIL to highlight any gun death or gun wound that don't fall under failure to navigate steps 1 and 2 of gun ownership.

    Now for the crazed killer. Maybe if guns were actually kept (see 1 and 2), the crazed killer wouldn't be able to treat a gun like a video game and kill people for a high score in the newspaper.

    guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

    by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 12:27:19 PM PDT

    •  Considering that the majority of homicides (13+ / 0-)

      are criminal on criminal, and that the typical murderer has a long history of violent offenses before graduating to homicide, your belief that the problem is "sheep that want to be a part time sheepdog for free" is entirely a figment of your imagination.

      Smug retelling of anecdotes aside, gun accidents are actually quite rare.

      Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

      by Robobagpiper on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 12:31:33 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Gun Fail (0+ / 0-)

        Gun Fail

        Diary is link rich. Your comment is link poor and I am not smug. Maybe a rabid lamb, but not smug.

        And my comment did say.

        Maybe we could get GunFAIL to highlight any gun death or gun wound that (doesn't) fall under failure to navigate steps 1 and 2 of gun ownership.
        Where did the criminal on criminal get their guns. Stolen? That would be Step 1 of gun ownership. Keep your gun.

        guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

        by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 12:41:30 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The premise behind Gunfail is to politicize (18+ / 0-)

          rare incidents in an attempt to delegitimize a Constitutional right.

          What the average person is incapable of grasping (because humans can't grasp big numbers without training) is that the sample size of these anecdotal "fails" is a population of 320 million.

          Want links? Follow the footnotes listed here. The notion that the biggest danger from guns are citizens with no prior violent criminal record is popular among prohibitionists, but is laughed at by criminologists.

          Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

          by Robobagpiper on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 12:46:18 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  PDF file with millions of links in the footnotes (0+ / 0-)

            which the poster has no idea what is said who said it or what the point he is trying to make.

            Here's a book for you to read.

            Link

               Bat Masterson was one of the early law officers at Dodge City, Kansas and a great friend of Wyatt Earp’s. Bat was an excellent gunfighter. He was a short, stubby man with a friendly homespun appearance that made him look like anything but a gunfighter. In later years he became a New York sports writer. He was not a heavy drinker. He preferred lemon pop to alcoholic drinks and drank large quantities of it. His favorite foods were cold tongue sandwiches and wiener sandwiches. Bat created a wiener sandwich which became well known throughout the Old West and was justly thought of as a great delicacy. Everyone called it a Prairie Dog. It is one of the greatest wiener recipes ever made and will be remembered long after Bat’s gun deeds are forgotten. Here is the original recipe.

            Again, the recipe is simplicity itself: you split a wiener, rub ground sage into the sides, and broil it; then, on one side of a bun, mustard and thinly sliced dill pickle, and on the other, Worcestershire sauce.

            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

            by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 12:53:01 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  I've read the entire paper, thank you. (10+ / 0-)

              The middle section rather handily dissects the notion that gun homicides are principally caused by ordinary citizens without a history of prior violence, with ample citations to primary research on the subject.

              Indeed, if it weren't the case, then the Hartford experiment wouldn't have worked as well as it did.

              Gun prohibitionists want us to believe that mere possession of a firearm makes one into a dangerous beast capable of going insane and killing at a moment's twitch. The data suggests that this could not be more wrong.

              Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

              by Robobagpiper on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 01:01:12 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  how did those 76 firearms come to be in the (0+ / 0-)

                possession of the violent people in the first place? The article doesn't seem to go there.

                Members also have seized 76 firearms.

                guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 01:10:38 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

              •  All I am saying that there are 2 rules of gun (0+ / 0-)

                handling.

                1. Keep your gun.
                2. Do not fire your gun by accident.

                All I am saying that if gun owners followed these 2 rules, the gun problem would be rare, and the GunFAIL diary probably would not exist. I would like to see these 2 rules codified into law.

                These 2 rules seem to be a major hurdle to gun toters present in this blog. I know you are above reproach in the 2 rules, but you fight tooth and nail to keep this from being codified into law. Instead you argue that the GunFAIL diaries are just a small percentage of the population and it really doesn't interest anybody outside of a small circle of friends.

                Guns are fun, why should there be any rules.

                guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 01:20:11 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  The "gun problem" (7+ / 0-)

                  is rare. Exceedingly rare.

                  The vast majority of people who own them keep them and do not fire them by accident.

                  Bad consequences of your two items are already codified into law. Stealing a gun is against the law. Any harm caused by an accidental discharge has legal ramifications - reckless endangerment, manslaughter, etc, etc

                  What you are asking for already exists. There is no hurdle.

                  But, what you are asking for under cover of "being reasonable" as you couch it, and you did not explain, is criminalization of gun ownership.

                  Uncalled for, not necessary and violates the civil rights of the vast majority of the population.

                  •  Losing a gun is about as serious as losing a video (0+ / 0-)

                    game. No wonder people can't keep them straight.

                    guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                    by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 05:36:18 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  If the vast majority keep the guns the own and (0+ / 0-)

                    do not fire them by accident, how is it violating their civil rights to really hammer those butterfingered trigger pullers that do let their guns get in the wrong hands and misfire guns by accident.

                    You would think that the gun owners who follow steps one and two, would shout the loudest when those steps are breached. But they deny and defend.

                    guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                    by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 05:45:03 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  In most municipalities, discharge of a firearm (7+ / 0-)

                      within city limits is a crime.

                      There's an affirmative defense to the charge, that you discharged it in defense of your life.

                      Anytime a weapon ends up with the police, they do trace it back to the last person a FFL sold it to.  This person, has some explaining to do, and it helps if they have a good lawyer.

                      What you ask for is already codified.

                      •  The 2nd Amendment rights to gun ownership are (0+ / 0-)

                        not forfeited by accidental or illegal discharge of a firearm. It is a video game level of crime and punishment.  Oopsie go forth and do better with you guns.

                        2 Amendment rights to gun ownership are not forfeited by letting your gun fall into the wrong hands, from a child who shoots it to a criminal who uses it, any hand not your own. You are free and welcome to go to the store to get another gun.

                        So when guns are let fly in the community there is little more attention than if a video game was the object and not a deadly weapon.

                        guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                        by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 07:02:25 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  In my town, unlawful discharge of a firearm is (5+ / 0-)

                          a felony.  AGGRAVATED discharge is a class 1 felony.

                          With a felony conviction, you can't pass a background check.  In my state, you need a foid card to buy guns or ammunition, or to go to most ranges.  Possession of a firearm in Illinois without a foid card, if you do not qualify for a foid card, is another felony.

                          The laws are already there for my state.  All we need is a national foid card (which also solves universal background checks) and law enforcement to do it's job.

                          I don't know where you live, but we have pretty good workable solutions here in my state.  If anything, we need more/better law enforcement.

                          •  Ok now we have covered the 2nd rule of gun (0+ / 0-)

                            ownership. You have not provided links that any one who has been convicted for an accidental discharge of a gun in your state ever losing their 2nd amendment rights to carry a gun.

                            On to the first.

                            Keep your gun.

                            Failure to keep your gun results in a felony in your town? Or is it oopsie, better watch out, my gun got into the wrong hands, by the way I'll be needing amnesty and I will be going to the store to get another gun. Because anything bad that would happen with my gun in the wrong hands is not my fault or responsibility.

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 09:03:40 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I think that anyone else would not have lost (0+ / 0-)

                            their gun, because they had to call it a crime of violence in regard to immigration laws.  So the whole crime got magnified in immigration court.

                            The Board reasonably concluded that the Illinois conviction in this case was a “crime of violence” for purposes of the immigration laws, see 8 U.S.C. §§ 1227(a)(2)(A)(iii) (aggravated felony) and 1101(a)(43)(F) (defining “aggravated felony” to include a “crime of violence”).   We therefore Deny Quezada-Luna's petition for review.

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 09:40:48 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  If you're arguing that Illinois has a lot of (5+ / 0-)

                            selective prosecution,  I'd agree.

                            The laws are there to be used to charge people with.  The fact that they aren't (or aren't consistently) is a LE/prosecutory problem.  Of which are legion in Illinois.

                          •  The first crime didn't seem like that big of a (0+ / 0-)

                            deal to them. They had to escalate it to deport the person. I am thinking that removing someone's 2nd Amendment rights would be much more difficult than deporting someone to Mexico.

                            So I find it difficult to fathom that anyone would even get their 2nd Amendment rightful gun confiscated and have to buy another for committing the original crime as a citizen.

                            You know like when they take your fishing pole when you fish out of season.

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 09:57:20 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  this is starting to go sideways (6+ / 0-)

                            The laws are there.

                            I can't help you if you find it difficult to believe that the laws will be enforced... Thats a whole separate issue.

                            If you have a hard time believing that Chicago doesn't confiscate firearms, google is your friend.  Elsewhere in the states, the laws are there to be enforced.  Not uniformly, which is another issue altogether.

                             

                          •  So if someone steals my gun (4+ / 0-)

                            I should be convicted of a felony? What if they held me at gun point while they stole my gun? Should that put me on death row?

                            That's just sick. I mean really sick.

                            You do understand that makes no sense and will never happen, right?

                          •  No problem, just run to the store and get another (0+ / 0-)

                            I will tell everyone to watch out there is a gun on the loose. Please call me when your new gun gets loose. I'll alert everyone there is danger.

                            Don't worry, I'll take care of what you can't.

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 10:56:52 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What if they shot me (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            andalusi

                            when they stole my gun? Would that be double death row?

                            Double death row with no last meal only beans and rice?

                          •  And if Lanza hadn't shot his mother's head off, (0+ / 0-)

                            you would be driving her to the store for more guns. Because she only furnished the guns, no big deal. Not her fault. They just fell into the wrong hands.

                            Her estate should be paying for all the damage her guns did.

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 03:23:06 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You didn't answer the question (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            andalusi, KVoimakas

                            Not Adam Lanza. Just a bad guy. What if they shot me when they stole my gun from me? What penalty should I pay then?

                            She should pay for her son's crimes? So when your son rapes and murders, you should get the punishment? When your daughter steals a car, drives drunk and kills children, you should go to jail, right?

                            That makes perfect sense to you, doesn't it?

                          •  It's a gun not a video game. You really can't see (0+ / 0-)

                            that.

                            Every aspect of weapon access is regulated and controlled.People have lost their careers because proper process was not followed even though all weapons were accounted for.
                            This is how a diarist describes military rules for gun control.

                            Your idea of gun ownership is muddy and more like the rules for owning a video game.

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 08:15:15 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Your idea of justice (3+ / 0-)

                            is authoritarian.

                            How far will you take this?

                            Let's say I didn't cover my breast sufficiently and was raped. So you think I should go to jail for not covering my breasts? I mean seriously, some rapists find breasts extremely provocative. Not covering causes violent crime. My breasts are not toys.

                            A person working in a desk job will lose their career if proper process is not followed. That's because they are working with someone else's money/property.

                            You don't have to be a member of the military to own a gun, or a drone for that matter. How someone treats their personal property and how they treat the governments property are two entirely exclusive situations.

                            It's that freedom thing.

                          •  No you are getting off the subject were talking (0+ / 0-)

                            about gun ownership and responsibility. Guns aren't boobies.

                            There are many responsibilities in life. Gun ownership has it's own particulars. That could just possibly be the reason the right of gun ownership was linked to WELL ORDERED MILITIA membership.

                            Remember the old freedom isn't free.

                            There's nothing wrong with owning a gun, as long as you remember it's a gun and not a toy, or a body part, like a penis or a boobie.

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 07:30:19 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It isn't actually. (3+ / 0-)

                            When your foundation is broken, building on it leads to a poor construct.

                            The individual right to own firearms wasn't contingent upon being in a militia.

                            Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 07:59:33 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I get it, the militia wording is just decorative (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Patrick Costighan

                            It could have been anything.

                            A fine set of knockers, being necessary to the body of a woman, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 08:07:27 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                            Works for me.

                            When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

                            by Patrick Costighan on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 09:47:40 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Time to round up the posse? (0+ / 0-)

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 09:56:29 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                            TGIF.

                            When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

                            by Patrick Costighan on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 10:03:30 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Actually, no. It's not decorative. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Patrick Costighan

                            But again, the individual right isn't contingent upon being in a militia.

                            Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 09:02:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                            Had to click "Parent" because for a minute there I thought you were talking about boobies.

                            When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

                            by Patrick Costighan on Sat Mar 30, 2013 at 06:07:22 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  LOL (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            andalusi, Patrick Costighan

                            So, you are assigning particulars to gun ownership, in order to expressly penalize the gun owner, even if the gun owner has done nothing wrong? You seem to ESPECIALLY want to penalize the gun owner who has done nothing wrong. You are suggesting putting up barriers to prevent gun ownership.

                            Murderers have used a body part to very effectively strangle the life out of their victims.

                            Everyone, including my Democratic Senator, and the Supreme Court, have concluded that the right to own a gun is independent of military service.

                            This is from the email he sent me in response to my email expressing my concerns:

                            Thank you for contacting me about protecting Second Amendment rights.

                            I grew up on a ranch in the Florida countryside and have been a hunter since I was a boy. I support a person's constitutional right to bear arms.

                            In 2008, the Supreme Court of the United States affirmed that the Second Amendment protects a person's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to military service, and to use that firearm for traditional lawful purposes like self-defense within the home. This is the law of the land.

                            I appreciate hearing your views on this subject. Hearing from you helps me to better serve you in the Senate.

                            Sincerely,
                            Bill Nelson

                          •  Just because you are independent of military (0+ / 0-)

                            service doesn't mean your guns are fun. Your guns are still guns, not hands or boobies.

                            Taking responsible care and following the 2 rules of gun ownership in not punishment.

                            1. Keep your gun.
                            2. Don't shoot your gun by accident.

                            I personally feel one strike your out. But I as forgiving as a gun.

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 08:51:21 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, you have stated (3+ / 0-)

                            that you personally feel that gun ownership should require that an individual sacrifice their privacy and private property rights. Then you would deny 2nd ammendment rights even if the gun owner was without fault should the gun owner be robbed of his/her gun even at gun point. You would then further punish the gun owner who had been robbed of his gun at gun point by rescinded all rights for said person and even suggested incarceration and fine.

                            The statement about military service that you made:

                            That could just possibly be the reason the right of gun ownership was linked to WELL ORDERED MILITIA membership.
                            Is just wrong. You know it, smarter people than you and me put together know it. Why perpetuate a myth? Does it suit your agenda? Is that why?
                          •  You don't see that (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            andalusi, Patrick Costighan

                            one violent crime is as bad as the next? Are you really arguing that it is not as bad to steal a car and kill someone as it is to steal a gun and kill someone?

                          •  A gun is not a car or a video game it is a object (0+ / 0-)

                            that has a particular set of needs.

                            1, Keep your gun
                            2. Don't shoot your gun by accident

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 09:22:20 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I didn't say anything about a video game (3+ / 0-)

                            Do you really think a person is deader because he/she was killed by a criminal with a stolen gun rather than a criminal with a stolen car?

                            How about your identity is stolen and used to purchase a firearm? Are you willing to go to prison for that?

                          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)
                            ac·ci·dent  
                            ˈaksidənt
                            Noun
                            An unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.

                            When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

                            by Patrick Costighan on Sat Mar 30, 2013 at 06:04:37 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Did the people involved in this lose their (0+ / 0-)

                            2nd Amendment rights to have a gun for a period of years? (A time period that I would expect from a felony.)

                            2 injured in accidental shooting at Illinois gun show

                            February 28, 2011 11:45 am  •  Associated Press
                            (0) Comments

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 09:08:16 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  In Bloomington (3+ / 0-)

                            discharge is a city offense.

                            Had the discharge been upstate, say in my town, yes I believe they would have been charged.  If they were convicted of the folony charge (i.e not allowed to plead down to a misdemeanor), yes, they'd lose their foid card and the ability to posess/handle/live in the same house as firearms would be taken from them.

                            And its not lost for 'a period of years'  its gone.  There's an appeals process in place, but to be successful you'd have to somehow prove you were wrongfully convicted.

                          •  I don't know. Thought you would as you are (0+ / 0-)

                            informed gun owner and you are particularly informed about Illinois.

                            If a bar served to a under 21 person, they could lose their license to serve. I wonder if a gun show has accidental discharge if they would be responsible.

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 10:59:37 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                        •  If you are convicted of a felony (4+ / 0-)

                          you lose your 2nd amendment rights.

                          If no harm comes from an accident, are you endorsing a felony conviction? Seriously? And everything that goes with that?

                          Felons lose a great many civil rights.

                          •  Guns are serious business. If you believe in (0+ / 0-)

                            accidents with guns, you are not up to the level of a person who should own a gun.  A gun is not a video game. You probably should stick to video games.

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 11:00:55 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  But what if (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            andalusi

                            no harm is done. You want a felony conviction?

                          •  You betcha. You lost control of you gun. You are (0+ / 0-)

                            the only one who can control your gun. I can't control your gun. Aunt Sally can't control your gun. There is only one person who can control your gun, that would you.

                            So yes, No 2nd Amendment rights for you.  And many many hours of community service.

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 03:15:14 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Just say it (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            andalusi

                            No second amendment rights for anybody, right?

                          •  And even if no harm is done. Losing control of (0+ / 0-)

                            your gun means no guns, pilgrim.

                            See Here

                            Every aspect of weapon access is regulated and controlled.  People have lost their careers because proper process was not followed even though all weapons were accounted for.
                            That's different you say, that's military. We're civilians, we treat guns like video games. Guns are fun. Now let us play.

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 03:20:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Well, you sort of comprehend the difference (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            andalusi, Patrick Costighan

                            Do you understand the difference between government property and private property?

                            You do understand that the goverment can tell you what to do with a government owned humvee, but not with your privately owned humvee, right? You can wrap yourself around that one, can't you?

          •  As for the rarity (0+ / 0-)

            It really wouldn't interest anybody outside of a small circle of friends. So why bother with gun handling 101.

            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

            by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 12:55:37 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  Hartford Connecticut cut their violent crime rate (9+ / 0-)

            significantly without confiscating firearms, by concentrating on violent CRIMINALS. I know there's a big faction among "progressives," "liberals," and Democrats generally who don't believe that there are people who choose what we call criminal action out of free will rather than because of circumstances beyond their control, but in the real world there are people who choose

            Grifting
            Graft
            Strongarming
            Drug dealing
            Theft
            Kidnapping
            Rape
            Murder

            deliberately, because to / for them, a profit arises out of those acts.
            There's nothing in that behavior I consider wolf-like; wolves serve a purpose in nature's balance.

            But there are people who choose to try to protect, defend, and assist instead of choosing to prey on their fellows, be those fellows human or otherwise. Being so inclined, I'll stand up for those sheepdogs too.

            LBJ, Lady Bird, Van Cliburn, Ike, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

            by BlackSheep1 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 03:13:51 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  I've actually looked at the statistics (12+ / 0-)

          which gunfail never posts, because it would disrupt the story line.

          http://www.cdc.gov/...

          How big is your personal carbon footprint?

          by ban nock on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 12:54:21 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  You looked at statistics that are not available? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Major Kong

            How The NRA Killed Federal Funding For Gun Violence Research

            Prior to 1996, the Center for Disease Control funded research into the causes of firearm-related deaths. After a series of articles finding that increased prevalence of guns lead to increased incidents of gun violence, Republicans sought to remove all federal funding for research into gun deaths.

            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

            by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 12:59:09 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Rubbish. There's plenty of research out there (12+ / 0-)

              Comparatively little is being done by the CDC, which - since it's not a disease - shouldn't be a problem.

              Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

              by Robobagpiper on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 01:02:16 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  This would be where you would cite clearly what (0+ / 0-)

                research you meant, a link to what you found. Not some avalanche of wild goose links going no where.

                guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 01:12:23 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  here's the simplified version (6+ / 0-)

                  all done up in colored graphs for you, but based on #s from the CDC, and others. Sources in small print on charts and at bottom.

                  So, uhm, how did you answer the poll? Sheep? Petitioner?

                  http://familiesafield.org/...

                  How big is your personal carbon footprint?

                  by ban nock on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 04:17:24 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  PDF file again. (0+ / 0-)

                    my answer is in my comments in this thread.

                    guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                    by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 05:37:30 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  you alergic to pdf files or the info in them? (6+ / 0-)

                      How big is your personal carbon footprint?

                      by ban nock on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 05:45:37 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  I don't like pdf files. They are not navigable (0+ / 0-)

                        you cannot cite them except for the whole thing. It's just a data dump and not helpful.

                        guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                        by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 05:47:32 PM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  Translation: (3+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          noway2, Wordsinthewind, Robobagpiper

                          You don't like them because you can't cherry-pick data and present it out-of-context.

                          Heh....

                          Your hate-mail will be graded.

                          by PavePusher on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 08:32:39 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  It's a very small doc, maybe 4 pages (2+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          KVoimakas, Wordsinthewind

                          big numbers, mostly colorful large graphs. Best of all it gives most of the info you would want to see how gun accidents have gone over the years.

                          It only takes one click and one second to load and you can tell if it's something easy to look at.

                          It just couldn't get much plainer. Except if you don't want to know the info contained.

                          You should also read and understand everything from the CDC and Dept of Justice. If you claim to be a gun control advocate you should be informed and fact based.

                          How big is your personal carbon footprint?

                          by ban nock on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 02:39:46 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  I am a YOU control YOUR gun advocate. (0+ / 0-)

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 03:24:51 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  best talk to my wife about that (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Patrick Costighan, KVoimakas

                            I do control my rifles though.

                            I don't understand why you don't want to become informed about gun accidents. Did you ever consider that you might have repeated misinformation? How is knowledge harmful if it's about an issue that you seem to concern yourself with?

                            How big is your personal carbon footprint?

                            by ban nock on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 04:52:22 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  How you can reject coming down with the ban (0+ / 0-)

                            hammer on someone who can't control their guns, I will not understand.

                               Every aspect of weapon access is regulated and controlled.  People have lost their careers because proper process was not followed even though all weapons were accounted for.
                            That's different you say, that's military. We're civilians, we treat guns like video games. Guns are fun. Now let us play.

                            Oh yeah you and your wife and your sex acts, well that is filed under TMI.

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 05:01:11 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  so uhm, about those accidents, numbers are (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            KVoimakas, Wordsinthewind

                            falling pretty continuously wouldn't you say? Great that less people die due to firearm accidents every year eh?

                            Don't get me wrong, all deaths avoided due to care and safety are a good thing, and I applaud the decrease in drowning, fire, falling, and vehicular deaths, but the very low incidents of firearm accidents continues to fall faster than the rest. Must be due to the fact that people who own firearms are so safety conscious, don't ya think?

                            How big is your personal carbon footprint?

                            by ban nock on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 07:14:58 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So uhm, read the quote, the outcome is not an (0+ / 0-)

                            issue. Harm is not an issue.

                            Even
                            if
                            all
                            the
                            weapons
                            were
                            accounted
                            for.

                            People
                            lost
                            their
                            careers
                            because
                            proper
                            process
                            was
                            not
                            followed

                            I am saying even if there is NO damage, NO ONE hurt. If you lose your gun or shoot your gun by accident you should lose your right to carry a gun.

                            A gun is not a video game. It's not a play toy. Rightful gunners need video games because they can't handle guns.

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 07:22:27 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You're a civilan you don't have to come up to (0+ / 0-)

                            military standards for your rightful toys.

                            Party on gun dude.

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 07:24:18 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Firearms are never toys. nt (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Wordsinthewind

                            Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 06:23:33 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  They are treated like toys by the NRA. (0+ / 0-)

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 07:31:29 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, they aren't. The NRA is one of the very few (2+ / 0-)

                            organizations that actually attempts to educate people on how to safely handle a firearm and use a firearm.

                            Why?

                            Because firearms used in an unsafe fashion can be lethal in an unwanted fashion. Firearms are never toys.

                            Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 07:57:08 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Do you have your man card. (0+ / 0-)

                            5 Mind-Blowing Facts Nobody Told You About Guns

                            What about the people who actually buy guns? Statistics tell us that fewer people are buying guns, but those people are buying more of them. To the grad students on the anti-gun side of the debate, this looks like a bunch of crazy rednecks, stocking their militia for the coming war on Obamacare. Why else would the NRA be fighting to get states to legalize silencers if they don't want to shoot people and keep it a secret?
                            But people familiar with gun culture will recognize it as something far sillier: a bunch of grown men collecting firearms like little girls collect Barbie dolls (we're not being insulting -- it's a running joke among gun enthusiasts).
                            So the rural gun owner in Wyoming buys the biggest, sexiest assault rifle he can find and tricks it out with all the accessories from the catalog, but he never actually uses it because nobody is going to break into his house because he lives in fucking Wyoming. If he wants to murder his wife, he'll get the revolver from the nightstand -- he's not going to go dig out and assemble his huge assault rifle. So why did he buy it? For the same reason his daughter will buy a dinette set for her Barbie Dream House even though she will never get to eat actual food at that table: for the fantasy.

                            Maybe this explains how hospitalization for gun injuries can be up even though the three types of gun-related crimes that cause such injuries (murder, robbery, assault) are all way down. Those ads that treat guns like toys for grown-ups worked, and people are treating guns like toys, instead of deadly weapons.

                            I know this is long quotes but I didn't send you to some 500 lb PDF file.

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 08:24:23 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Fewer people buying more guns? (0+ / 0-)

                            Statistics doesn't tell us that.  Naive arithmetic does.  They took the sum of production data from 1950-1959, compiled by Kleck no less, and divided it by the estimated number of gun owning households.  Never mind that the production data includes sales to domestic public agencies and does not account for firearms exiting circulation.

                            When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

                            by Patrick Costighan on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 09:50:06 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  What statistics tell us the contrary. (0+ / 0-)

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 10:03:36 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                            Not statistics.  Mere bean counting:

                            Production-based data have limitations in that they account for neither additions to the stock from illegal or other uncounted means nor losses from seized, lost, or nonworking firearms. These data also exclude firearms manufactured or exported for the military but include firearms purchased by domestic law enforcement agencies.

                            When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

                            by Patrick Costighan on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 10:06:26 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  google MORE guns (beans) by fewer households. (0+ / 0-)

                            you are just dividing the beans by the population. The beans are not evenly distributed.

                            here

                            here

                            and on and on

                            google more households own guns

                            We have to rely on polling data because there is no national database of who owns a gun. One poll is the the now biennial General Social Survey (GSS) conducted by the University of Chicago. These surveys are conducted face-to-face. We also traditional telephone polls conducted by ABC/Washington Post, CBS/New York Times, and Gallup. link

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 10:19:16 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                            Neither one of your sources has numbers, let alone methodology.  If they're referring to some other calculation, they make no mention of it.

                            GSS doesn't ask how many guns you own.  Neither does Gallup, ABC/Washington Post, or CBS/New York Times.

                            Put simply, we have no information on the distribution of firearms throughout the country.  We just happen to know the distribution of gun owners.  We also, I should add, have no idea how many guns are currently in circulation.  Again, 310 million includes all guns ever madd, regardless of whether or not they even exist anymore, and it includes sales to public agencies.

                            When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

                            by Patrick Costighan on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 10:25:00 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I didn't realize I needed a card to be a man. (0+ / 0-)

                            Silencer legalization? I'm all for it. In places like Finland, you buy a silencer like we would buy a hammer here. It's just hardware.

                            Interesting. Curious; how is this different than my collection of Legos or my collection of lighters OR my collection of bladed items or...?

                            Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 09:05:58 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Couple quotes you missed: (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            ErikO, andalusi, Patrick Costighan
                            So the culmination of the rash of mass shootings, the relentless promotion of guns, the spike in gun sales, the proliferation of violent video games, and the creepy worship and fetishizing of firearms is ... fewer gun murders.
                            We'll probably be able to have a really good discussion about it as soon as everyone stops seeing it as a political issue, or accusing everyone who brings it up of having an agenda. So, by the year 3113 or so.

                            Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Sat Mar 30, 2013 at 07:27:47 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                •  Why bother? You wouldn't read them, unless (3+ / 0-)

                  they came in the form of hyperlinks to popularized blog articles whose authors and sites are in ideological concordance with you.

                  But that's not where research is to be found. It's to be found in the footnotes of pdf files, and journals which publish in the same format.

                  Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

                  by Robobagpiper on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 10:44:59 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

            •  asdf (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Robobagpiper

              Still pushing the lie about research bans and whatnot.  Good stuff.

              When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

              by Patrick Costighan on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 08:09:44 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

          •  Again your link went to the land of 1,000 links. (0+ / 0-)

            You use links to obfuscate your point not to clarify your point. You think if you post gobs of links that are impossible to follow, that you have made a point.

            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

            by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 01:07:28 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

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