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  •  The premise behind Gunfail is to politicize (18+ / 0-)

    rare incidents in an attempt to delegitimize a Constitutional right.

    What the average person is incapable of grasping (because humans can't grasp big numbers without training) is that the sample size of these anecdotal "fails" is a population of 320 million.

    Want links? Follow the footnotes listed here. The notion that the biggest danger from guns are citizens with no prior violent criminal record is popular among prohibitionists, but is laughed at by criminologists.

    Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

    by Robobagpiper on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 12:46:18 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  PDF file with millions of links in the footnotes (0+ / 0-)

      which the poster has no idea what is said who said it or what the point he is trying to make.

      Here's a book for you to read.

      Link

         Bat Masterson was one of the early law officers at Dodge City, Kansas and a great friend of Wyatt Earp’s. Bat was an excellent gunfighter. He was a short, stubby man with a friendly homespun appearance that made him look like anything but a gunfighter. In later years he became a New York sports writer. He was not a heavy drinker. He preferred lemon pop to alcoholic drinks and drank large quantities of it. His favorite foods were cold tongue sandwiches and wiener sandwiches. Bat created a wiener sandwich which became well known throughout the Old West and was justly thought of as a great delicacy. Everyone called it a Prairie Dog. It is one of the greatest wiener recipes ever made and will be remembered long after Bat’s gun deeds are forgotten. Here is the original recipe.

      Again, the recipe is simplicity itself: you split a wiener, rub ground sage into the sides, and broil it; then, on one side of a bun, mustard and thinly sliced dill pickle, and on the other, Worcestershire sauce.

      guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

      by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 12:53:01 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  I've read the entire paper, thank you. (10+ / 0-)

        The middle section rather handily dissects the notion that gun homicides are principally caused by ordinary citizens without a history of prior violence, with ample citations to primary research on the subject.

        Indeed, if it weren't the case, then the Hartford experiment wouldn't have worked as well as it did.

        Gun prohibitionists want us to believe that mere possession of a firearm makes one into a dangerous beast capable of going insane and killing at a moment's twitch. The data suggests that this could not be more wrong.

        Non enim propter gloriam, diuicias aut honores pugnamus set propter libertatem solummodo quam Nemo bonus nisi simul cum vita amittit. -Declaration of Arbroath

        by Robobagpiper on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 01:01:12 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  how did those 76 firearms come to be in the (0+ / 0-)

          possession of the violent people in the first place? The article doesn't seem to go there.

          Members also have seized 76 firearms.

          guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

          by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 01:10:38 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  All I am saying that there are 2 rules of gun (0+ / 0-)

          handling.

          1. Keep your gun.
          2. Do not fire your gun by accident.

          All I am saying that if gun owners followed these 2 rules, the gun problem would be rare, and the GunFAIL diary probably would not exist. I would like to see these 2 rules codified into law.

          These 2 rules seem to be a major hurdle to gun toters present in this blog. I know you are above reproach in the 2 rules, but you fight tooth and nail to keep this from being codified into law. Instead you argue that the GunFAIL diaries are just a small percentage of the population and it really doesn't interest anybody outside of a small circle of friends.

          Guns are fun, why should there be any rules.

          guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

          by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 01:20:11 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The "gun problem" (7+ / 0-)

            is rare. Exceedingly rare.

            The vast majority of people who own them keep them and do not fire them by accident.

            Bad consequences of your two items are already codified into law. Stealing a gun is against the law. Any harm caused by an accidental discharge has legal ramifications - reckless endangerment, manslaughter, etc, etc

            What you are asking for already exists. There is no hurdle.

            But, what you are asking for under cover of "being reasonable" as you couch it, and you did not explain, is criminalization of gun ownership.

            Uncalled for, not necessary and violates the civil rights of the vast majority of the population.

            •  Losing a gun is about as serious as losing a video (0+ / 0-)

              game. No wonder people can't keep them straight.

              guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

              by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 05:36:18 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  If the vast majority keep the guns the own and (0+ / 0-)

              do not fire them by accident, how is it violating their civil rights to really hammer those butterfingered trigger pullers that do let their guns get in the wrong hands and misfire guns by accident.

              You would think that the gun owners who follow steps one and two, would shout the loudest when those steps are breached. But they deny and defend.

              guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

              by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 05:45:03 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  In most municipalities, discharge of a firearm (7+ / 0-)

                within city limits is a crime.

                There's an affirmative defense to the charge, that you discharged it in defense of your life.

                Anytime a weapon ends up with the police, they do trace it back to the last person a FFL sold it to.  This person, has some explaining to do, and it helps if they have a good lawyer.

                What you ask for is already codified.

                •  The 2nd Amendment rights to gun ownership are (0+ / 0-)

                  not forfeited by accidental or illegal discharge of a firearm. It is a video game level of crime and punishment.  Oopsie go forth and do better with you guns.

                  2 Amendment rights to gun ownership are not forfeited by letting your gun fall into the wrong hands, from a child who shoots it to a criminal who uses it, any hand not your own. You are free and welcome to go to the store to get another gun.

                  So when guns are let fly in the community there is little more attention than if a video game was the object and not a deadly weapon.

                  guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                  by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 07:02:25 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  In my town, unlawful discharge of a firearm is (5+ / 0-)

                    a felony.  AGGRAVATED discharge is a class 1 felony.

                    With a felony conviction, you can't pass a background check.  In my state, you need a foid card to buy guns or ammunition, or to go to most ranges.  Possession of a firearm in Illinois without a foid card, if you do not qualify for a foid card, is another felony.

                    The laws are already there for my state.  All we need is a national foid card (which also solves universal background checks) and law enforcement to do it's job.

                    I don't know where you live, but we have pretty good workable solutions here in my state.  If anything, we need more/better law enforcement.

                    •  Ok now we have covered the 2nd rule of gun (0+ / 0-)

                      ownership. You have not provided links that any one who has been convicted for an accidental discharge of a gun in your state ever losing their 2nd amendment rights to carry a gun.

                      On to the first.

                      Keep your gun.

                      Failure to keep your gun results in a felony in your town? Or is it oopsie, better watch out, my gun got into the wrong hands, by the way I'll be needing amnesty and I will be going to the store to get another gun. Because anything bad that would happen with my gun in the wrong hands is not my fault or responsibility.

                      guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                      by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 09:03:40 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                        •  I think that anyone else would not have lost (0+ / 0-)

                          their gun, because they had to call it a crime of violence in regard to immigration laws.  So the whole crime got magnified in immigration court.

                          The Board reasonably concluded that the Illinois conviction in this case was a “crime of violence” for purposes of the immigration laws, see 8 U.S.C. §§ 1227(a)(2)(A)(iii) (aggravated felony) and 1101(a)(43)(F) (defining “aggravated felony” to include a “crime of violence”).   We therefore Deny Quezada-Luna's petition for review.

                          guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                          by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 09:40:48 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                      •  So if someone steals my gun (4+ / 0-)

                        I should be convicted of a felony? What if they held me at gun point while they stole my gun? Should that put me on death row?

                        That's just sick. I mean really sick.

                        You do understand that makes no sense and will never happen, right?

                        •  No problem, just run to the store and get another (0+ / 0-)

                          I will tell everyone to watch out there is a gun on the loose. Please call me when your new gun gets loose. I'll alert everyone there is danger.

                          Don't worry, I'll take care of what you can't.

                          guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                          by 88kathy on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 10:56:52 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  What if they shot me (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            andalusi

                            when they stole my gun? Would that be double death row?

                            Double death row with no last meal only beans and rice?

                          •  And if Lanza hadn't shot his mother's head off, (0+ / 0-)

                            you would be driving her to the store for more guns. Because she only furnished the guns, no big deal. Not her fault. They just fell into the wrong hands.

                            Her estate should be paying for all the damage her guns did.

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 03:23:06 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  You didn't answer the question (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            andalusi, KVoimakas

                            Not Adam Lanza. Just a bad guy. What if they shot me when they stole my gun from me? What penalty should I pay then?

                            She should pay for her son's crimes? So when your son rapes and murders, you should get the punishment? When your daughter steals a car, drives drunk and kills children, you should go to jail, right?

                            That makes perfect sense to you, doesn't it?

                          •  It's a gun not a video game. You really can't see (0+ / 0-)

                            that.

                            Every aspect of weapon access is regulated and controlled.People have lost their careers because proper process was not followed even though all weapons were accounted for.
                            This is how a diarist describes military rules for gun control.

                            Your idea of gun ownership is muddy and more like the rules for owning a video game.

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 08:15:15 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Your idea of justice (3+ / 0-)

                            is authoritarian.

                            How far will you take this?

                            Let's say I didn't cover my breast sufficiently and was raped. So you think I should go to jail for not covering my breasts? I mean seriously, some rapists find breasts extremely provocative. Not covering causes violent crime. My breasts are not toys.

                            A person working in a desk job will lose their career if proper process is not followed. That's because they are working with someone else's money/property.

                            You don't have to be a member of the military to own a gun, or a drone for that matter. How someone treats their personal property and how they treat the governments property are two entirely exclusive situations.

                            It's that freedom thing.

                          •  No you are getting off the subject were talking (0+ / 0-)

                            about gun ownership and responsibility. Guns aren't boobies.

                            There are many responsibilities in life. Gun ownership has it's own particulars. That could just possibly be the reason the right of gun ownership was linked to WELL ORDERED MILITIA membership.

                            Remember the old freedom isn't free.

                            There's nothing wrong with owning a gun, as long as you remember it's a gun and not a toy, or a body part, like a penis or a boobie.

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 07:30:19 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It isn't actually. (3+ / 0-)

                            When your foundation is broken, building on it leads to a poor construct.

                            The individual right to own firearms wasn't contingent upon being in a militia.

                            Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 07:59:33 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I get it, the militia wording is just decorative (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Patrick Costighan

                            It could have been anything.

                            A fine set of knockers, being necessary to the body of a woman, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 08:07:27 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                            Works for me.

                            When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

                            by Patrick Costighan on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 09:47:40 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Time to round up the posse? (0+ / 0-)

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 09:56:29 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                            TGIF.

                            When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

                            by Patrick Costighan on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 10:03:30 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Actually, no. It's not decorative. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Patrick Costighan

                            But again, the individual right isn't contingent upon being in a militia.

                            Republicans cause more damage than guns ever will. Share Our Wealth

                            by KVoimakas on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 09:02:38 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)

                            Had to click "Parent" because for a minute there I thought you were talking about boobies.

                            When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

                            by Patrick Costighan on Sat Mar 30, 2013 at 06:07:22 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  LOL (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            andalusi, Patrick Costighan

                            So, you are assigning particulars to gun ownership, in order to expressly penalize the gun owner, even if the gun owner has done nothing wrong? You seem to ESPECIALLY want to penalize the gun owner who has done nothing wrong. You are suggesting putting up barriers to prevent gun ownership.

                            Murderers have used a body part to very effectively strangle the life out of their victims.

                            Everyone, including my Democratic Senator, and the Supreme Court, have concluded that the right to own a gun is independent of military service.

                            This is from the email he sent me in response to my email expressing my concerns:

                            Thank you for contacting me about protecting Second Amendment rights.

                            I grew up on a ranch in the Florida countryside and have been a hunter since I was a boy. I support a person's constitutional right to bear arms.

                            In 2008, the Supreme Court of the United States affirmed that the Second Amendment protects a person's right to possess a firearm, unconnected to military service, and to use that firearm for traditional lawful purposes like self-defense within the home. This is the law of the land.

                            I appreciate hearing your views on this subject. Hearing from you helps me to better serve you in the Senate.

                            Sincerely,
                            Bill Nelson

                          •  Just because you are independent of military (0+ / 0-)

                            service doesn't mean your guns are fun. Your guns are still guns, not hands or boobies.

                            Taking responsible care and following the 2 rules of gun ownership in not punishment.

                            1. Keep your gun.
                            2. Don't shoot your gun by accident.

                            I personally feel one strike your out. But I as forgiving as a gun.

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 08:51:21 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  No, you have stated (3+ / 0-)

                            that you personally feel that gun ownership should require that an individual sacrifice their privacy and private property rights. Then you would deny 2nd ammendment rights even if the gun owner was without fault should the gun owner be robbed of his/her gun even at gun point. You would then further punish the gun owner who had been robbed of his gun at gun point by rescinded all rights for said person and even suggested incarceration and fine.

                            The statement about military service that you made:

                            That could just possibly be the reason the right of gun ownership was linked to WELL ORDERED MILITIA membership.
                            Is just wrong. You know it, smarter people than you and me put together know it. Why perpetuate a myth? Does it suit your agenda? Is that why?
                          •  You don't see that (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            andalusi, Patrick Costighan

                            one violent crime is as bad as the next? Are you really arguing that it is not as bad to steal a car and kill someone as it is to steal a gun and kill someone?

                          •  A gun is not a car or a video game it is a object (0+ / 0-)

                            that has a particular set of needs.

                            1, Keep your gun
                            2. Don't shoot your gun by accident

                            guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                            by 88kathy on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 09:22:20 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  I didn't say anything about a video game (3+ / 0-)

                            Do you really think a person is deader because he/she was killed by a criminal with a stolen gun rather than a criminal with a stolen car?

                            How about your identity is stolen and used to purchase a firearm? Are you willing to go to prison for that?

                          •  asdf (0+ / 0-)
                            ac·ci·dent  
                            ˈaksidənt
                            Noun
                            An unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury.

                            When God gives you lemons, you find a new god.

                            by Patrick Costighan on Sat Mar 30, 2013 at 06:04:37 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                    •  Did the people involved in this lose their (0+ / 0-)

                      2nd Amendment rights to have a gun for a period of years? (A time period that I would expect from a felony.)

                      2 injured in accidental shooting at Illinois gun show

                      February 28, 2011 11:45 am  •  Associated Press
                      (0) Comments

                      guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                      by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 09:08:16 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  In Bloomington (3+ / 0-)

                        discharge is a city offense.

                        Had the discharge been upstate, say in my town, yes I believe they would have been charged.  If they were convicted of the folony charge (i.e not allowed to plead down to a misdemeanor), yes, they'd lose their foid card and the ability to posess/handle/live in the same house as firearms would be taken from them.

                        And its not lost for 'a period of years'  its gone.  There's an appeals process in place, but to be successful you'd have to somehow prove you were wrongfully convicted.

                        •  I don't know. Thought you would as you are (0+ / 0-)

                          informed gun owner and you are particularly informed about Illinois.

                          If a bar served to a under 21 person, they could lose their license to serve. I wonder if a gun show has accidental discharge if they would be responsible.

                          guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                          by 88kathy on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 10:59:37 AM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                  •  If you are convicted of a felony (4+ / 0-)

                    you lose your 2nd amendment rights.

                    If no harm comes from an accident, are you endorsing a felony conviction? Seriously? And everything that goes with that?

                    Felons lose a great many civil rights.

                    •  Guns are serious business. If you believe in (0+ / 0-)

                      accidents with guns, you are not up to the level of a person who should own a gun.  A gun is not a video game. You probably should stick to video games.

                      guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                      by 88kathy on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 11:00:55 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  But what if (1+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        andalusi

                        no harm is done. You want a felony conviction?

                        •  You betcha. You lost control of you gun. You are (0+ / 0-)

                          the only one who can control your gun. I can't control your gun. Aunt Sally can't control your gun. There is only one person who can control your gun, that would you.

                          So yes, No 2nd Amendment rights for you.  And many many hours of community service.

                          guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                          by 88kathy on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 03:15:14 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                        •  And even if no harm is done. Losing control of (0+ / 0-)

                          your gun means no guns, pilgrim.

                          See Here

                          Every aspect of weapon access is regulated and controlled.  People have lost their careers because proper process was not followed even though all weapons were accounted for.
                          That's different you say, that's military. We're civilians, we treat guns like video games. Guns are fun. Now let us play.

                          guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

                          by 88kathy on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 03:20:34 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  Well, you sort of comprehend the difference (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            andalusi, Patrick Costighan

                            Do you understand the difference between government property and private property?

                            You do understand that the goverment can tell you what to do with a government owned humvee, but not with your privately owned humvee, right? You can wrap yourself around that one, can't you?

    •  As for the rarity (0+ / 0-)

      It really wouldn't interest anybody outside of a small circle of friends. So why bother with gun handling 101.

      guns are fun v. hey buddy, watch what you are doing -- which side are you on?

      by 88kathy on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 12:55:37 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  Hartford Connecticut cut their violent crime rate (9+ / 0-)

      significantly without confiscating firearms, by concentrating on violent CRIMINALS. I know there's a big faction among "progressives," "liberals," and Democrats generally who don't believe that there are people who choose what we call criminal action out of free will rather than because of circumstances beyond their control, but in the real world there are people who choose

      Grifting
      Graft
      Strongarming
      Drug dealing
      Theft
      Kidnapping
      Rape
      Murder

      deliberately, because to / for them, a profit arises out of those acts.
      There's nothing in that behavior I consider wolf-like; wolves serve a purpose in nature's balance.

      But there are people who choose to try to protect, defend, and assist instead of choosing to prey on their fellows, be those fellows human or otherwise. Being so inclined, I'll stand up for those sheepdogs too.

      LBJ, Lady Bird, Van Cliburn, Ike, Ann Richards, Barbara Jordan, Molly Ivins, Sully Sullenburger, Drew Brees: Texas is NO Bush League!

      by BlackSheep1 on Wed Mar 27, 2013 at 03:13:51 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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