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View Diary: Request from An Old Member (159 comments)

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  •  I was quite moved to see Francis (25+ / 0-)

    washing the feet of a Muslim woman prisoner.   FWIW, this is hugely symbolic and either Francis genuinely means this stuff,  or he has upgraded the quality of his PR advisors.

    I'll also note that Catholics aren't the only folks who will be celebrating Easter.

    I'll honor the truce.

    don't always believe what you think

    by claude on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 06:44:52 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Thank you! (9+ / 0-)

      What we're seeing is genuinely amazing.

    •  exactly... (6+ / 0-)

      Easter doesn't belong to Catholics alone.

      Plus, criticism of the institution of the church (which is what the so-called 'Catholic bashing' really is) has very little to do with the celebration of an integral high holy day of Christianity.

      The fact that neither the diarist nor the officials of the RCC can see and practice that separation is one of the factors that leads to many of the circumstances that are at the root of much of the criticism.

      So, rather than helping to work through the problems, this diary is just a continuation of the same problem.

      Mostly though, criticizing the RCC after the RCC has been the center of so much attention, is just kinda boring at this point.  I'd agree that it's time for a new subject, or a brief break.

      The issues will still be there after Easter, too.

      Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

      by a gilas girl on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 07:54:38 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  What? (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        VClib, 3goldens

        Obviously I never said Easter belongs to Catholics alone?  Where does that come from?

        As to your second sentence, it has nothing to do with anything I said.

        The rest of your comment is incoherent, or at least I myself have no idea what you're trying to say, and I've read your words several times.

        I usually agree with your posts, but I'm just baffled by this one.

        •  You certainly interred it, (9+ / 0-)

          however, I was responding to claude's comment and he did say it.  I was echoing his sentiment.

          My second sentence has everything to do with what you said, your entire diary was about 1) labeling criticism of an institution as bashing a religion and 2) using a particular holiday of said religion as a reason to curtain criticism of the institution.

          Basically, you've conflated two things in your request which are not the same thing at all and in doing that have asked for a kind of "shield" against criticism which mirrors the same kind of logic tha the instiution of the church has long used both to extend its power and thus create the situations and actions which are what people are criticizing about the church.

          You aren't doing your faith or your church any favors by using this logic to try and protect it.

          Words can sometimes, in moments of grace, attain the quality of deeds. --Elie Wiesel

          by a gilas girl on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 08:33:07 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  This is what we call "Hiding behind religion". (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          allergywoman

          One which days will you refrain from defending the massive evils the Catholic Church has committed?

          income gains to the top 1% from 2009 to 2011 were 121% of all income increases. How did that happen? Incomes to the bottom 99% fell by 0.4%

          by JesseCW on Thu Mar 28, 2013 at 09:30:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The balance of good to evil is (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            MPociask, Hey338Too

            about one million to one.

            Your exaggeration says more about you than about reality.

            •  That is a very revealing comment. (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              ExStr8

              You are claiming a good/evil ratio of 1000000:1, and I don't think that kind of number leaves a lot of room for discussion.

              I know quite a few Catholics, and as a whole I find them to be fundamentally decent people. I would probably say the same about most other groups of people that I can think of. However, I find the role played by the Catholic Church in U.S. and international politics to be troubling in a number of ways. I don't think I'm engaging in Catholic bashing, but to someone who thinks that the balance of good to evil is about one million to one I probably am.

      •  Easter doesn't belong to Christians at all. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        allergywoman

        Easter is a pagan fertility celebration. Christians, in wanting to have a celebration at the same time, didn't even bother to change the name of the celebration the way they did with their adoption of pagan solstice celebrations as "Christmas".

        •  The timing of Easter is closely related (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          CorinaR, cynndara, Timaeus

          ..to the timing of Passover. The Last Supper was a seder. In most languages the name is also related to Passover. The coincidence of the timing of the Anglo-Saxon Pagan feast of Eostre with the Paschal feast led to a transfer of the name in English, but attributing the timing to "wanting to have a celebration at the same time" misconstrues the actual history.

          Cogito, ergo Democrata.

          by Ahianne on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 09:06:40 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  The history of Christianity... (0+ / 0-)

            ...is filled with Christianity doing everything it could to eliminate paganism and convert pagans to Christianity. It's a lot easier to do that when one props up a Christian version of a pagan holiday next to an actual pagan holiday and hope everyone ignores that it's nothing but Christianity trying to appropriate paganism in an attempt to grow its popularity.

            Valentine's Day
            Easter
            Halloween (aka All Saint's Day Eve)
            Christmas

            They're all pagan in orgin but have been Christianized.

            Christianity is the Wal-Mart of religion. It would go into a region, open a store, drive the local mom&pop stores out of business with aggressive marketing tactics, and then monopolistically corner the market, leading to us now having Christianity driving public policies despite the legal requirement of separation of church and state.

            •  Christianity coopted the dates (0+ / 0-)

              ..and some of the folk customs of several Pagan holidays. Christmas is a prime example. Easter isn't. It has been celebrated on a date related to Passover (though no longer calculated in the same way) since long before the early English started to be converted to Christianity.

              Cogito, ergo Democrata.

              by Ahianne on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 10:30:43 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  When Christians... (0+ / 0-)

                ...stop calling Easter "Easter" then I might accept that argument. Until then, Christians are still participating in paganism while trying to pretend it's different. Resurrection is nothing but fertility in a button-up shirt.

                •  English speaking Christians call it Easter. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Timaeus

                  Most of the world's Christians don't speak English. Your argument is premised on a trivial happenstance of the evolution of one of the world's languages, and you think it applies to all of Christianity?

                  Cogito, ergo Democrata.

                  by Ahianne on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 05:38:17 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Valid point about the name. (0+ / 0-)

                    But that doesn't invalidate the Christian church's successful attempts at using asspulled holidays held in proximity to pagan holidays in order to eliminate paganism (you cannot deny the Christian church actively sought to destroy pagan religions) by drawing pagans into the Christian church.

                    Christianity won; it dominates the entire world, and yet that's still not enough for most Christians.

            •  In many cases (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Ahianne, Timaeus

              quite right.  However Eostre is the exception.  The political crisis that led to the crucifixion centered around a day that was already holy for most religions at that time, the full moon of the vernal equinox.  It had been holy for at least 1500 years in the Middle East, was the New Year celebrated at least as far west as Rome, and yes, was also celebrated by the Saxons and other Germanic tribes.  But the real historical events also occurred at that time of year because that was when religious politics spilled over into secular law in Judea, and Jesus was crucified the weekend after Passover.

              In this case there was an actual, verifiable reason for the convergence of the two mythologies.  Granted, the myth of the Resurrection indubitably borrowed from previous Near Eastern myths centered around the dying and re-arising God of Spring.  But Attis and Adonis both took several months at it, while Jesus managed the deal in three DAYS, suggesting that somewhere in the interim, God invented a really good 3-D printer.

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