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  •  No other nation in the world (2+ / 0-)
    Recommended by:
    zenbassoon, Just Bob

    ...is willing to put up with that kind of abuse.

    Ruth Bader Ginsburg advises nations who are updating their constitutions to ignore the US constitution for that reason.



    Denial is a drug.

    by Pluto on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 05:24:42 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  That's because political theory has changed (6+ / 0-)

      a lot since the constitution was written. When Mill wrote On Liberty it fundamentally changed people's conception of what a right is and why we have them. In some ways this was better, but I think in the long term having a utilitarian base for rights is a losing proposition. Not that most people actually think about what a right is or how we get rights, even countries that explicitly confer rights. I certainly don't see a right as something conferred, but these things are hard to talk about and most people don't want to deal with the difficulties that come with the conversation.

      Ultimately, inherent rights are stronger than conferred rights because inherent rights can't be taken away, only infringed.

      If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

      by AoT on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 05:33:26 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Eleanor Roosevelt wrote the blueprint (3+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Vetwife, Bisbonian, codairem

        ...for almost every constitution in existence today -- in regard to people's rights.

        It's just not that complicated.

        Meanwhile, political theory hasn't changed all that much. Consider what Jefferson said about the legitimacy of a constitution that is not updated frequently --  in a series of letters to James Madison.

        In the course of exploring a wide range of generational sovereignty issues, Jefferson asserted:

        "We seem not to have perceived that, by the law of nature, one generation is to another as one independent nation to another.

        "[N]o society can make a perpetual constitution, or even a perpetual law. The earth belongs always to the living generation.

        "Every constitution, then, and every law, naturally expires at the tend of 19 years.

        "If it be enforced longer, it is an act of force and not of right.”



        Denial is a drug.

        by Pluto on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 05:45:42 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  My point is that people have to work (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Pluto, AoT, glorificus

          hard if they want a more perfect union because there is concessions of representation of ALL of the people and first they have to know the truth via media or whatever and then they have to care.   Lies and Apathy...a path to nowhere.

          We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

          by Vetwife on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 05:58:58 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Allowing for amendments to the constitution (3+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Vetwife, Pluto, codairem

          is, of course, a good practical idea, not exactly what I was talking about when I said political philosophy. And as much as I agree with the rights enumerated in the Declaration of Human Rights it gives no basis for those rights, it simply decrees that they exist. That was the power of Mill's On Liberty, he gave a comprehensive, secular basis for rights. No one has done that for inherent rights, they've simply stated that they exist with no explanation of how or why, or even what a right really is.

          In what sense do we possess them? Are they simply an obligation of other people in regards to how they treat us and how we are obligated to treat them? Where does that obligation come from? There's a lot there and from what I've seen people mostly gloss over the difficult questions. I think that's part of the reason that we're having such difficulties with the gun debate. The right to own guns clearly isn't the same as the right to free speech, at least in my mind. I don't even know that we have a right to bear arms. And yet in the constitution there is clearly some sort of right to bear arms, although the extent and how and who it actually applies can be debated.

          It's a much bigger issue than you or most people make it out to be.

          If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

          by AoT on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 06:00:13 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I truly believe (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            VClib

            ...that you are conflating process with intention. I'm sure it feels daunting. It's easier if you start from the beginning:

            The only reason that humans form governments is for the benefit of the people.

            That is the intention. There is no other reason for a government to exist.

            Take it from there.

            Every twenty-to-forty years the people of the nations of the world sit down at a table to create a new constitution that meets that goal.

            It is not really a contentious process. They don't bring guns. They try to write a document that the people of their nation will ratify, based on the modern world that they live in and the dreams of each individual for a better life and better opportunities for their children.

            If they deliver that, it gets ratified.



            Denial is a drug.

            by Pluto on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 06:17:26 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  But to be honest , that idea was before (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              codairem, glorificus

              corporations were declared to be people.  Now Corporate interest is the name of the game.  Do you think we will ever get to the benefit OF the people and FOR the people who are actual people?

              We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

              by Vetwife on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 06:23:08 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  The US Constitution fully allows for (0+ / 0-)

                ...corporate control over the nation. After all, it was written to appease slave holders in the various states.

                In the end, I do believe that people get the constitution that they deserve.

                And, I also believe that people have the right -- and should enjoy the experience -- to live under a government they love.

                One can only speculate about the past, but I believe the world (and America) would be a better place if the US had divided into separate nations years ago. I believe a regional split is inevitable and the people will be much happier. We can't go on like this.

                The fear that this Diary causes (that you can see from the comments) -- fear that the other side will take over -- is what paralyzes the evolution of the nation and the fulfillment of the people's will.

                It's time for this cell to divide.



                Denial is a drug.

                by Pluto on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 06:49:47 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I did not understand the fear of the diary (3+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Pluto, AoT, glorificus

                  because I just reported what I read.  I am not advocating
                  for any kind of overthrowing of this country ,  I do advocate on educating the masses to realize they have a stake in how their politicians are behaving and I don't mean sleaze photos or some sort of marital infidelity but
                  to wake up and get involved in the process.  I really feel many are just Not with it.  We have to have some sort of
                  sane legislation and some moderation in all areas.  Separation of church and state is a very good start.

                    I also am very disappointed in many corrupt things that are going on but destroying the union is just not what I am up to but you must remember not all people are educated and do  believe the propoganda passed to them.  They are just not smart enough to know their own best interests.  They have not been educated to know truth from fiction .  My Lord Palin comes to mind quickly.  I really do not believe the people deserved Palin in Alaska.
                  There will always be Elmer Gantrys and cons and someone has to point them out.. That should be a given if apeople wants to survive.   I do agree it cannot continue as is. because the people have been dumbed down.

                  We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

                  by Vetwife on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 07:00:05 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

              •  Vetwife - corporations have never been (2+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Pluto, Musial

                declared people by the SCOTUS. What the Court has ruled is that corporations have some of the same rights of "human persons"

                "let's talk about that"

                by VClib on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 10:51:27 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

            •  I think what you are saying that it is a LIVING (3+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Pluto, glorificus, AoT

              document and when people lose interest in the living of
              anything including our form of government  then it grows ]or dies.

              We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

              by Vetwife on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 06:44:41 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

            •  I completely disagree (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              glorificus

              And so does history. Governments are formed to secure the power of certain groups of people and legitimize that power. Certainly, the intention should be to improve things for the people, but those who actually form governments are the people who already have power, overwhelmingly gained through violence. Governments are first and foremost a way of methodizing and legitimizing the use of violence. In the case of the us the use of violence is legitimized by "protecting rights." And that is why the discussion of what rights actually are matters.

              If the intent of forming a government should be for the benefit of the people then the first question is "what benefits the people?" How do we determine what is good for the people without a process. Figuring out not only what is good for the people but also how to figure out what is good for the people is the crux of the problem. Doing that in the face of the fact that the people actually deciding these things rarely have the good of the people in mind beyond the necessary amount to keep the people from rejecting and overthrowing the government.

              But all of this belies the real question here, what are rights and why are people obligated to respect them. Unless we have a satisfactory answer to that then the idea that the government has a legitimate right to useviolence to protect said rights is meaningless.

              If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

              by AoT on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 07:59:29 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  So you believe the preservation of (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                glorificus

                a dysfunctional government can be only made functional ..how?  Because I surely do not know.  I just know I do not want any kind of civil unrest.

                We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

                by Vetwife on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 08:17:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I wish i had an answer for that (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Vetwife, Whatithink

                  If I did I would be shouting it from the roof tops.

                  But two points in regards to it. First, we already have civil unrest, it's just a matter of scale at this point. And second, I think that our actions and resistance to injustice outside of the government are the bestway to improve society. Marriage equality isn't winning becauseactivists voted for the right politician, it's happening because they got out there and changed people's minds about gay people. Sure, you need government involved when you're changing laws, but the rising liberal tide is not because people voted a certain way, it's because they convinced people of liberal ideas. People heretend to losesight of that.

                  If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

                  by AoT on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 08:27:25 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

          •  I agree with that sentiment (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            glorificus

            there is never a clear path to reform or any type of change and God I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall or just one in the crowd when FDR did the New Deal.  I love idea and ideals and to have heard those debates in person would have been earthmoving !

            We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

            by Vetwife on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 06:19:05 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  I love to think about the idea of forming (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        glorificus

        better government and it based on what we have.  The problem with the tea bag folks is change backwards is not change but regression.  Going in their direction is not change at all but reverting back to ways that HAD to be changed for the good of the people.  

        When people like Bachman accuses people who differ from her ideaology as enemies should be ousted but she keeps getting elected...Educating the masses is what it's going to take to bring this country forward but even with the majority saying this or that is on the wrong track, the politicians still move in their own idealogy.   This is not how it is supposed to work.  

        We the People have to make a difference and the Change.....Just do it ! Be part of helping us build a veteran community online. United Veterans of America

        by Vetwife on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 06:41:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Won in power struggles, 1688, 1783, (0+ / 0-)

        and in 1865 and 1965, and numerous others. Nothing has changed to remove voter sovereignty or the guidelines of the Declaration of Independence, it just seems so, since voters will not mobilize to protect the bill of rights or preserve the separation of powers. A constitutional convention happens now every year in the Roberts Court. The antidemocratic GOP should have nothing to complain about.

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