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View Diary: Under pressure, NC governor wises up and removes Rebel battle flag from old capitol building (204 comments)

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  •  Look, (13+ / 0-)

    I am not a fan of the Che myself but you need to get a few facts straight on what Marxism is and it is not. Marxism does not make you a mass-murderer nor keeps you from being one. That some under the banner of Marxism have committed mass-murder is an undeniable fact but so have others in the name of capitalism, a lot more I would argue, and also kept many from being free, again an undeniable fact. But this is not about arguing the merits and demerits of different economic philosophies. You wouldn't go around saying that capitalism "is tyranny and slavery", albeit many do, would you? I have no interest in defending or attacking any -isms, but I have a bone to pick with all encompassing statements such as the one you made because they miss the forest for the trees. Most -isms have their good and their bad and some are just downright heinous. History is a little more complicated, just saying.

    "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -John F. Kennedy

    by basquebob on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 11:19:55 PM PDT

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    •  I don't think I said (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      basquebob

      that Marxism makes you a mass murder, but communism and marxism are fundamentally repressive ideologies inconsistent with individual freedom.

      Now I am not saying that countries that are capitalist in nature Can not be repressive, they certainly can and have existed.

      But Marxism/Communism inherently by its nature is tyrannical and enslaves people. I don't think it's a coincidence that all communist states have been totalitarian states.

      Throughout my entire public career I have followed the personal philosophy that I am a free man, an American, a public servant, and a member of my party, in that order always and only." -- LBJ

      by moderatemajority on Fri Mar 29, 2013 at 11:24:15 PM PDT

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      •  That communism and marxism (7+ / 0-)

        are fundamentally repressive ideologies inconsistent with individual freedom is a point of view. Of course there are plenty of examples around the world where marxist regimes have been and are repressive and worst, but is that a feature of the philosophy or a result of other factors internal and external? I am not a communist nor a marxist so I don't have any particular interest in defending them nor attacking them although I feel compelled to denounce any form of tyranny regardless of the label. Nevertheless, tyranny has different meanings to different people and there is no bigger tyranny than the tyranny of hunger and abject poverty. As I said earlier, many atrocities, including deprivation of freedom, have been committed and are committed under te banner of many -isms, but the question is: are those a feature of those -isms or a byproduct?

        Usually where there is power there is room for tyranny, something about the nature of some human beings willing to submit others to their whims. And yes, systems with rigid power structures tend to be more prone to tyranny than others. This diary is a good example, Republicans won big in NC in the last two elections, 2010 and 2012, and now think it is O.K. to do things like displaying the rebel flag in the Capitol building. And that is terrible but there are other really bad things happening such as cutting unemployment benefits to $350 max a week and for six weeks max, and rolling back voting rights among other things. I have lived in NC for about 30 years now. Many of those years with Jesse Helms as a Senator. I have never seen this state regress so much so fast, we are calling it the Mississippification of NC, and to many this feels like tyranny.  

        "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -John F. Kennedy

        by basquebob on Sat Mar 30, 2013 at 12:11:51 AM PDT

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        •  Well of course I have (1+ / 0-)
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          basquebob

          and do argue that marxism and communism are intrinsically hostile to individual freedom. If the repeated examples throughout history are not sufficient,  what it ultimately boils down to on a theoretical basis is that you can not have freedom without private property rights. That is not to say that I think private property rights should be unrestricted a la Ron Paul, but private property rights are the basis of individual freedom and Marxism has no respect for said rights.

          Throughout my entire public career I have followed the personal philosophy that I am a free man, an American, a public servant, and a member of my party, in that order always and only." -- LBJ

          by moderatemajority on Sat Mar 30, 2013 at 12:20:24 AM PDT

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          •  adsf (6+ / 0-)

            That private property rights is the basis of individual freedom is an opinion. I personally believe in a right to private property and I think it is important but by no means more important than other rights that better define freedom for me. My opinion.

            I am not an expert in Marxism and it has been a long time since I read Marx and others, but I don't think that not having any rights to private property is one of the tenets of Marxism. Now it is true that some forms of property are controlled by the State and that the State dictates their use and the State also dictates how much property you can own. Then there is also central planing. All that is also true in our system. Of course under Communist regimes this practice is more pervasive, if you will, and also more abusive, if you want. I don't dispute any of that, but the same happens in our country under different mechanisms (subsidies, licenses, imminent domain, taxes, etc) and you might want to believe in a more respectful way to the individual. But if you look at the history of farming in this country from the 19th century until now, many farmers that lost their land would beg to disagree you. Sometimes they lost their land to the bankers or other creditors, and sometimes to the tax collector, and almost always under onerous circumstances. To that farmer it doesn't matter if who took the land was Joseph Stalin, J.P. Morgan or Hoover. The result is the same.

            Again, I am not going to defend Marxism but let's accept that your belief of property rights in other non-Marxist countries, including the U.S., is sacred.

            "The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie -- deliberate, contrived and dishonest, but the myth, persistent, persuasive, and unrealistic. Belief in myths allows the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought." -John F. Kennedy

            by basquebob on Sat Mar 30, 2013 at 12:51:25 AM PDT

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          •  You may well believe that private property (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            a2nite

            is the basis of individual liberty but you won't find that principle asserted in either the Declaration of Independence or the US Constitution. To the contrary. The Declaration asserts that liberty is a natural right inherent from birth independent of property and the Constitution affirms the power of the state to take property behind the fig leaf of "just" compensation.

            So if you really believe in the principle you claim, you'd have to conclude that the governing principles of the US are as inimical to individual liberty as the others you mention.

            Nothing human is alien to me.

            by WB Reeves on Sat Mar 30, 2013 at 09:00:25 AM PDT

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    •  And mercantilism, the grandpa of both. (0+ / 0-)

      Thump! Bang. Whack-boing. It's dub!

      by dadadata on Sat Mar 30, 2013 at 05:32:33 AM PDT

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    •  You don't have to swallow all of it (0+ / 0-)

      If you stick to the basics, it is not hard to accept that there is such a thing as class struggle, for example, whether or not you accept the rest of Marx's analysis. Marx was outraged by the excesses of the Industrial Revolution. And while we don't have quite the same degree of exploitation of workers today, we have plenty of exploitation still, and it is clear enough who benefits from it.

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