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View Diary: How the 90% Is Getting Something for Nothing: Wage Slavery (183 comments)

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  •  So... (3+ / 0-)

    That's why workers need to take control of Labor, occupy the workplace, equally and democratically  share the fruits of production, and send Ayn Randian libertarians off to... whichever regime will take them.

    Automation is fine. Guess who created these machines? And guess who should enjoy the leisure time these machines create?

    You're stuck in an outdated, elitist paradigm that serves the ruling class.

    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

    by ZhenRen on Sat Mar 30, 2013 at 05:09:57 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  is your boss a member of the ruling class? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sparhawk

      I've yet to meet one of them after 20+ years in the labor market.

      To you, I'm an atheist. To God, I'm the loyal opposition.” ― Woody Allen

      by soros on Sat Mar 30, 2013 at 09:38:39 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  yes (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Klusterpuck

        My boss is worth about 20 million or more.

        And he treats me as if I'm an ant, despite the fact I am wayyyyy more educated than he is. He uses me as if I'm an inanimate asset he owns.

        What's your net worth?

        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

        by ZhenRen on Sat Mar 30, 2013 at 10:04:11 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  My networth is irrelevant to this conversation. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sparhawk

          And so the net worth of your boss but you seem convinced that because your education he should be asking you for advice.  

          Why aren't you the boss?  

          Maybe, you should just tell him how to properly run his business.

          To you, I'm an atheist. To God, I'm the loyal opposition.” ― Woody Allen

          by soros on Sat Mar 30, 2013 at 10:20:57 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Your net worth (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Klusterpuck

            would inform me of your economic interests in capitalist society, and thus would give me useful information as to your status. It is highly relevant. And you don't get to dictate what sort of information is useful to me. You aren't in control here.

            The net worth of my boss is, for the same reasons, highly relevant. Enormous wealth provides privilege. That is undeniable in capitalism if you've been paying attention. I've known many wealthy persons. There are recognizable patterns of behavior that are perceptible.

            As to your question:

            Why aren't you the boss?  

            Maybe, you should just tell him how to properly run his business.

            My, the overtones of social Darwinism that laces this query. I'm not the boss because I've chosen a different path in life. But I could do my employers job far better than he, at this juncture. I simply don't like this form of exploitation, and thus have gone a different way.

            Implicit from your remark is he is one of those "job creators" we've all insufferable heard about from right wingers. And yet, without people like me he wouldn't be able to organize his enterprise. We, his staff, make him successful. Without us, he would not succeed. It is only due to private property that he can dominate the rest of us. He is a fool, but his ambition has driven him forward in an industry in which once one has a bit of wealth, it can be easily expanded. I've once been in his shoes, and I decided it wasn't for me.

            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

            by ZhenRen on Sat Mar 30, 2013 at 10:36:56 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  " I've chosen a different path in life" (0+ / 0-)

              That's your choice and maybe one day you'll be the the person everybody calls Boss but until then you should butt out of their affairs, unless specifically asked.

              To you, I'm an atheist. To God, I'm the loyal opposition.” ― Woody Allen

              by soros on Sat Mar 30, 2013 at 11:29:59 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I've been the boss... (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                Klusterpuck

                It didn't conform to my principles.

                Being a boss is inherently exploitative, due to owning the means of production. It is one of the most selfish, authoritarian acts I've ever committed.

                And no one has some sort of inherent right to have dominion over others.

                Tell me, who made exploitation a human right?

                "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                by ZhenRen on Sat Mar 30, 2013 at 11:34:01 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  I had an employee leave this week (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sparhawk

                  zero notice.  Should I sue them because obviously they were so valuable to my business but I just couldn't see through the fog of exploitation?

                  To you, I'm an atheist. To God, I'm the loyal opposition.” ― Woody Allen

                  by soros on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 12:02:55 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  What makes you think... (2+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Words In Action, Klusterpuck

                    you are owed anything at all from the employee? Have you ever fired an employee without notice? The employee effectively fired you as a boss. But you most likely have far more wealth than the employee who worked as you wage slave.

                    Why should the employee consider your pain?

                    I'm curious: How much was the employee paid?

                    Are you actually thinking that the relationship was equal? Really?

                    I've had a glass of two of champagne, so I'm in a good mood, by the way. ;)

                    Heh.

                    "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

                    by ZhenRen on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 12:12:12 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Obviously you didn't have a very good rapport. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Klusterpuck

                    In all my years of business with literally over a thousand employees, I didn't have more than a handful like that.

                    I always talked to them up front, said, "look, I understand people change their minds about jobs. If you get to the point you feel you need, don't just disappear. Talk to me and we'll work something out so you can look for a job and I can prepare for your departure. That and developing a relationship based on trust pretty much always does it."

                    Let me guess, you always give them two weeks notice (and or a severance) when you let them go... Somehow, that doesn't sound like you.

                    What's the point of letting neoliberals into the tent when neoliberalism is burning down the campground?

                    by Words In Action on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 07:17:57 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

          •  Private property (0+ / 0-)

            puts my employer in a position to take economic and social advantage of other individuals by exploiting them with the power derived from his control of assets.

            It is not due to some vast ability he has that others lack, but rather the power of owning the means of production.

            No one should be able to control the rest of us simply due to exclusive domination of assets.

            That is akin to asking the "owner" of a well for a glass of water, after crawling through a desert for miles in blistering sunlight, only to come to an oasis, habituated by a person who has taken possession of a natural spring, who demands the thirsty traveler to become a slave for the rest of his useful life, if he wants to survive.

            Who decides who owns what? Basically, outside of a collective community or family, it is the one with the greatest degree of strength. I say "outside of a collective community" because only strangers tend to treat other strangers with such callous indifference. Capitalism renders us all as strangers, "free" to exploit each other as if there is no mutual relationship between us beyond one of power and greed.

            "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

            by ZhenRen on Sat Mar 30, 2013 at 11:20:59 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  You think you live in a meritocracy? (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Klusterpuck

            You hiding behind that one?

            Look, I spent 15 years as a corporate executive and another 10 as a small business owner. I've seen it all. I've seen all you people who think you've earned and deserve everything you can take. Well, very few of you do.

            Let me spend a couple of days, people with whom you've worked, employees, customers,  and going over your books, and I will lay out an ironclad case that demonstrates that you didn't build it, Mitt. Not nearly as much as you are prepared to credit for.

            What's the point of letting neoliberals into the tent when neoliberalism is burning down the campground?

            by Words In Action on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 07:26:37 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  By the way... (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Klusterpuck

        Most employers are by definition the ruling class if they can hire and fire wage employees.

        They have authority over other individuals, and are in a position to inflict severe economic control and thus economic damage to workers. The have the power to ruin lives. Thus, they rule over worker's lives. That is a fact, no matter how much money employers make, or don't make. It is the nature of the beast.

        If you haven't met them, then you don't understand the nature of the labor market, and don't perceive the power of the owner class, or... you are somehow insulated from experiencing this.

        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

        by ZhenRen on Sat Mar 30, 2013 at 10:14:25 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  Then you obviously don't friends in (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Klusterpuck

        high places.

        I've worked with them and I've had them as customers. Either way, you do it long enough, you'll see the worst humanity has to offer. The stories are true.

        Jamie Dimon amd Lloyd Blankenfeld are not anomalies.

        These are people who not only want your last dime, but would just as soon have you working exactly as they did back in those Dickens' novels. How do I know? That's exactly what they do when they can in some part of the world they think know one is watching.

        And these are the people you not only defend and protect, these are the people you emulate.

        That's why I say: we have nothing in common. We as party cannot achieve the goals set down in the party platform with people like you propping up supply-side economics, vulture capitalism and disaster capitalism at every turn.

        What's the point of letting neoliberals into the tent when neoliberalism is burning down the campground?

        by Words In Action on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 07:22:28 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  No one cares (0+ / 0-)

      You can 'take control of labor' all you want.

      They will invent a machine to replace laborers and then do so.

      Automation is fine. Guess who created these machines? And guess who should enjoy the leisure time these machines create
      So... supermarket checkout cashiers design and manufacture self checkout machines? Who knew?

      The people automated out of a job are never the machine designers, who pretty much just go on to automate something else afterwards.

      (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
      Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

      by Sparhawk on Sat Mar 30, 2013 at 10:30:28 PM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You may not realize this... (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Words In Action, Klusterpuck

        but engineers are part of the working class.

        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

        by ZhenRen on Sat Mar 30, 2013 at 10:38:07 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  And those designs (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Klusterpuck

        are made using the efforts of countless other developments, made by countless other individuals through history. Why should a step forward belong to a few private individuals?

        There is no way to measure the contributions of society to make possible that one small step forward in technology. No one creates anything in a vacuum, all due to one's own efforts.

        "In times of universal deceit, telling the truth will be a revolutionary act." -George Orwell

        by ZhenRen on Sat Mar 30, 2013 at 10:41:22 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Re (0+ / 0-)
          are made using the efforts of countless other developments, made by countless other individuals through history.
          All of whom were compensated for their individual contributions when they made them.
          Why should a step forward belong to a few private individuals?
          Because they took the step, and other people didn't.

          Besides, everyone benefits from better technology in the form of lower prices and improvements.

          (-5.50,-6.67): Left Libertarian
          Leadership doesn't mean taking a straw poll and then just throwing up your hands. -Jyrinx

          by Sparhawk on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 12:14:48 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Exhibit F: the 'deification of money' fallacy (0+ / 0-)
            are made using the efforts of countless other developments, made by countless other individuals through history
            All of whom were compensated for their individual contributions when they made them.
            I'm guessing you like 'work for hire' laws, where anything you do at all belongs to your employer because you're employed by them.  After all, they're being compensated by their regular paychecks - no need to even discuss how much more you'll make off of them by appropriating their so-called private efforts, right?  I mean, they got paid, so we're all square!

            Right?

            I am a leaf on the wind - i hover, twirl, float,
            Weightless, frictionless, I fly

            by chmood on Mon Apr 01, 2013 at 10:53:54 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  The point is whether or you are (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Klusterpuck

        involved in making something positive or negative out of that situation.

        Capitalism is nihilistic.

        If we want to make sure we don't have a world of suffering and misery, at least some of us have to come up with a way to avoid that.

        Because I know, from my experience as both a corporate executive and as a small business owner, it's all too easy to ignore the people involved and just focus on the numbers, which is exactly what most people in those positions wind up doing.

        So which side are on you on?

        What's the point of letting neoliberals into the tent when neoliberalism is burning down the campground?

        by Words In Action on Sun Mar 31, 2013 at 07:10:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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