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View Diary: Reaping What You Sow: Are White Supremacists Preparing to Fight a new Civil War? (276 comments)

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  •  Yes and no (8+ / 0-)

    There are people who think that the fact that the populace is well armed protects us from fascism if the left and the right are both well armed. One of the reasons I worry about the future is that the right now assumes that the left is not armed and is planning violence in such a way as to take advantage of that assumed fact. One of the things that people forget about fascism is that it is not a movement that starts with the government, it is a movement that starts with violence from civil society and then takes over government.

    People who think they can fight the government once it becomes fascist are idiots, people who think that everyone having guns might prevent fascism may be wrong, but they aren't paranoid.

    If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

    by AoT on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 05:48:33 PM PDT

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    •  It is an interesting but sad discussion (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      AoT, Old Lefty, mjr

      So sad.

      My avatar image is a photograph I took in 2008 of the headwaters of a waterfall in the imperiled Parque Nacional de Garajonay, a UNESCO World Heritage Site on La Gomera, birthplace of my grandfather, in the Canary Islands not far from the Sahara Desert.

      by Galtisalie on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 05:52:20 PM PDT

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    •  Maybe fascism could start w/corporations taking (13+ / 0-)

      over the government.  Corporations are people too, my friend.

      Fiscal conservative: a Republican ready to spend $5 to save a dime--especially if that dime is helping a non-donor.

      by Mayfly on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 06:02:20 PM PDT

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      •  good point (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Old Lefty, Mayfly

        My avatar image is a photograph I took in 2008 of the headwaters of a waterfall in the imperiled Parque Nacional de Garajonay, a UNESCO World Heritage Site on La Gomera, birthplace of my grandfather, in the Canary Islands not far from the Sahara Desert.

        by Galtisalie on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 06:06:19 PM PDT

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      •  That's already happening (6+ / 0-)

        For the most part, though, this hasn't resulted in what most people associate with fascism, e.g. concentration camps, disappearances, beatings, executions (although if you're poor or black and live in a major city, it's often a distinction without a difference, of course). What some of these people appear to believe is that this IS happening, or is about to, or would, were it not for their guns.

        They actually seem to believe that they're modern day militia called up to fight the modern day equivalent of the Redcoats, and that they and their guns are all that stand between tyranny and freedom.

        The thing is, I don't think it's any longer far-fetched that we someday could have full-blown "hard" fascism in the US, with camps, beatings, executions, etc. There are certainly enough crazy and hateful far-right authoritarians in the US who'd love that to happen. But if it does happen, it'll almost certainly come from such types exploiting an economic downturn that would make the one we're in look like child's play, and the ensuing chaos, breakdown in order and public anger and fear. I.e. the very same wingnuts who are disproportionately loading up on guns and angry at "big guvmint".

        I don't think that all extreme RKBA types are at all aligned with such types. Certainly not the ones on this site. At least not wittingly. But inadvertently, they're only helping them, by making implicit common cause with them with their anti-government, anti-gun control, paranoid stance.

        "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

        by kovie on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 06:19:48 PM PDT

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      •  DID start, you mean? (0+ / 0-)

        I am a leaf on the wind - i hover, twirl, float,
        Weightless, frictionless, I fly

        by chmood on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 06:43:13 AM PDT

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    •  From my discussions with them (16+ / 0-)

      I'd say that a belief that guns are what protect us from fascism and paranoia about big brother coming to take away their guns and freedom are closely linked in them. I personally have no problem with responsible people owning guns that have legitimate civilian use owning guns, so long as they're properly trained and licensed and store, carry and use their guns properly. But believing that your guns protect you from big brother, who's planning to take away your guns, yeah, that's paranoid. It's Tim McVeigh levels of paranoia.

      There are certainly things to be concerned about when it comes to excessive, illegitimate or misused and abused government power, such as warrantless wiretaps, drones, stop and frisk, peaceful protest shutdowns, etc. But fearing that DHS is coming for us and our guns, and that owning guns will protect us from that, is both crazy and paranoid. And stupid.

      That said, I respect everyone's right to their own opinion.

      "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

      by kovie on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 06:05:43 PM PDT

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      •  Here's the thing (9+ / 0-)

        I would feel a lot better if I knew that everyone who agreed with me as much as you do politically owned guns. Not because I like them, or want you to shoot someone, or think that we're all going to fight the government and take over or some fantasy bullshit. No, it's because I've read my labor history. I know what happens when there's a general strike. I know what happened when there was a general strike right here where I live, and I know that the fascists wouldn't have been able to do what they did if the union members were armed, not on the picket line but at home and at the office.

        If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

        by AoT on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 06:14:36 PM PDT

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        •  To me an interesting question (4+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          AoT, ozsea1, Old Lefty, Boreal Ecologist

          if where on the continuum of armament do we, and our enemies or potential enemies, have to stop. I personally have a shot gun and a .30-06 hunting rifle, in case I ever wanted to go hunting. No one will ever get those taken away, but I sure don't want anyone getting assault rifles, etc.

          My avatar image is a photograph I took in 2008 of the headwaters of a waterfall in the imperiled Parque Nacional de Garajonay, a UNESCO World Heritage Site on La Gomera, birthplace of my grandfather, in the Canary Islands not far from the Sahara Desert.

          by Galtisalie on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 06:23:09 PM PDT

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        •  Self-defense is legitimate (9+ / 0-)

          Thing is, the people we're up against have gotten a bit smarter and more sophisticated since the era depicted in Matewan. Today they own politicians, think tanks and the media, have armies of lawyers, and have developed a far "softer" image than in the past. They don't have to shoot strikers anymore. They just fire them and replace them with out of work non-union workers desperate for income, or shut down the store or plant and move it elsewhere. Or they bribe them with small settlements provided they sign a document saying they won't sue, if there's some sort of industrial accident or mishap.

          Consciously or not, today's authoritarians have learned from the past and have gotten much better at it. They'll shoot to kill if they have to, but they rarely do (in the US against non-poor non-minorities, at least). And when they do, our having guns won't be of much help. You really think law enforcement will side with the people? You think if Martin had a gun to protect himself against Zimmerman, the police would have sided with him?

          Any way you look at it, guns are not what keep us free and safe from power. Our minds, our hearts, our energy, our determination, are what do that.

          "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

          by kovie on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 06:28:26 PM PDT

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          •  Well said. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            kovie, Losty

            And again, since in my ideal world, the only guns people could own are more like existed in 1776, there is a lot of gun control that is needed to be sure. But I am not holding my breath. Bless you for your good sense and great comment.

            My avatar image is a photograph I took in 2008 of the headwaters of a waterfall in the imperiled Parque Nacional de Garajonay, a UNESCO World Heritage Site on La Gomera, birthplace of my grandfather, in the Canary Islands not far from the Sahara Desert.

            by Galtisalie on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 06:37:24 PM PDT

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            •  Eh, I'm ok with people owning (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              Galtisalie, Old Lefty, AoT, JVolvo

              more modern guns. I'm seriously not a gun hater. I mean, most gun owners back then owned single shot musket-loading smoothbore rifles back then, and we've come a ways since then with rifling (which existed back then but was expensive and much harder to load and clean), cartridges, breech loading (broadly speaking), repeaters, etc. And these all serve a legitimate purpose for the various uses to which modern guns are put by civilians.

              But the line has to be drawn somewhere, in my and many others' (including many gun owners) view, at the point where a given type of gun's inherent danger to others if misused outweighs whatever use it might offer a relative small group of people. E.g. an assault rifle, or more precisely any rapid-fire semi-automatic gun equipped with more than 8-10 rounds per clip. I'm sure that there are SOME good uses for these out there (apparently farmers and ranchers use them to kill vermin), but not enough to justify the danger they pose in the wrong hands IMO. And they WILL get into the wrong hands.

              "Liberty without virtue would be no blessing to us" - Benjamin Rush, 1777

              by kovie on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 06:45:30 PM PDT

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          •  They don't shoot strikers because (9+ / 0-)

            No one strikes when they aren't suppose to and because unions are already broken. If the working class starts winning again things will change.

            If debt were a moral issue then, lacking morals, corporations could never be in debt.

            by AoT on Tue Apr 02, 2013 at 07:14:16 PM PDT

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