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View Diary: Sanford Voted To Impeach Bill Clinton, Demanded He Resign (154 comments)

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  •  She was a legal adult (5+ / 0-)

    But I asked you about your allegation, disputed by Monica Lewinsky herself, that Clinton used his "position of power."

    The evidence does not support your allegation, whatever your moral beliefs.

    You can say that Clinton should not have engaged in the relations with Lewinsky based on your moral beliefs.

    What you can not state based on your moral beliefs is an assertion that is, based on the available evidence, not true.

    Your moral beliefs are not evidence.

    •  We're not in court. (0+ / 0-)

      You are being ridiculous and interpeting my statement as a legal assertion when it is not.  Since it is not a lkegal assertion regarding any cause of action, what is your point?

      I explained it.  

      Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

      by TomP on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 09:59:38 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  You are being ridiculous (2+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        mrblifil, Eyesbright

        You made a factual assertion which is, based on the available evidence, not true.

        I am pointing out that your factual assertion is not supported by the available evidence.

        Why do you object to that?

        I am not interpreting your factual assertion, I am pointing out it is not supported by the available facts.

        Try to stick to the evidence in the future.

        •  We're talking past each other. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          MRA NY

          We disagree.  You make unsupported assertions and call them "evidence. "

          Maybe it's the word "power" or "position" that drives this dispute.  I would not screw a young associate for a number of reasons (inlcuding that I'm in a monagomous relationship), but to me, it also would be a moral abuse of power, even if it were legally irrelvant (although it would set up a possible sex harrrassment claim in my case depending on the future).

          We beleive different things.  You can call your position "fact-based," although I disagree with that depiction.  You have not convinced me.  

          Take care.  

          Join us on the Black Kos front porch to review news and views written from a black pov—everyone is welcome.

          by TomP on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 10:18:48 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Are you denying (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            that the evidence from the mouths of the participants is that that there was no coercion?

            That is the fact based nature of my point.

            You raise moral objections to Clinton's conduct.

            Let me surprise you be joining in them

            But I strongly object to your unsupported, indeed completely contradicted assertions that Clinton "used his power" to get sex from Lewinsky.

            Are you arguing that the evidence is not what I say on that point? Perhaps you have some basis for your statements?

            I can point to the statements of Monica Lewinsky.

            •  Heaven forbid I wade in to this (12+ / 0-)

              But here goes.

              I have to side with Tom P on this one, while at the same time agreeing that you are factually correct.

              You're correct because there is no evidence anywhere of coercion.  Both parties said they wanted it, and I believe them.

              Nevertheless, in my mind (and what I think Tom P is saying), any relationship between The President of the United States, and a 23 year old intern, is inherently asymmetric.  (I'm trying to avoid the word "coercive".)  One party has all the power.  Overt intimidation or coercion is not necessary to make the relationship unfair to the younger, powerless party.  As Tom says, it's the same as a college professor having an affair with a much younger student.  I think most people would agree that is wrong, even though not illegal.  And the reason it's wrong is that there is an inherently coercive aspect to the relationship.  For the  same reason it is highly unethical for a psychiatrist or therapist to date patients.

              I'll also say, I thought the Republican hissy fit was outrageous, that Clinton should not have been impeached, and in fact that there should not have been a whitewater investigation in the first place.  The whole persecution of Clinton was outrageous.

              But that doesn't mean I approve of his actions, and in addition, I am to this day upset with him.  One can never prove a "what if?", but I have always thought that Gore would have been President if Clinton had kept his pants on.  The election would not have been close enough that Bush could steal it.  "Of all the sad words of tongue or pen, the saddest are these:  'It might have been.' "  

              "[W]e shall see the reign of witches pass over . . . and the people, recovering their true spirit, restore their government to its true principles." Jefferson

              by RenMin on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 10:56:33 AM PDT

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          •  Arguing with a lawyer is like.... (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            TomP, mikejay611, OldSoldier99

            mud wrestling with a pig.  You know the joke.  This all started way back up the thread with a false equivalence between Nixon's criminal behavior and Clinton's incontinence and the ensuing witchhunt.  If there were time, we could bring Reagan and Bush into the discussion, where fact-based positions might well point to impeachable behavior.  But, we're just talking about a single, hypocritical, former Republican congressman, and there are so many to choose from it might want a separate diary.

            •  Reagan should have (0+ / 0-)

              been impeached for Iran-Contra. Selling weapons to our sworn enemies in order to illegally fund a rebel army eclipses getting blowjobs from a woman not your wife. IMHO.

              "A lie is not the other side of a story; it's just a lie."

              by happy camper on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 05:20:15 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

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