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View Diary: Here's why it's a bad idea to say support for stricter gun control has collapsed (203 comments)

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  •  I really do not believe any civilian has the (29+ / 0-)

    "right" to have and use military style ammunition.  AK-47s, M-16s, AR-15s, etc, have ammunition that is designed to splinter and tumble through the body.

    The International Red Cross and a good number of nations consider this ammunition/weapons combination to be "inhumane" for use in war.

    Think about that.  They consider that to be inhumane. For war!

    And we are letting civilians buy and use this stuff.  It literally ripped those little children apart.  Single wounds are often fatal because of the severe damage.

    There is just no excuse, in my opinion, for any civilian to be carrying around these ammunition/weapon combinations.  Why not let them have bazookas, Stinger missiles and anti-tank weapons too?  

    Where is the line?  In my mind, the line is the other side of "military."

     Just downgrading those weapons from fully-automatic to semi-automatic and calling it "good" is not enough.

    "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

    by YucatanMan on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 02:31:16 PM PDT

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    •  Point of information. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      elwior, bigjacbigjacbigjac

      The M43 and M67 (AK 47 cartridges) break apart.  

      The only nation that argued for the outlawing of such ammunition is, AFAK, Switzerland that the last time they had the serious threat of invasion was in the 1940s.  

      But you say nothing about soft point and hollow point bullets which are used in hunting and much more effective against flesh.  5.56 Nato is at best highly variable in its terminal performance.  Some times it breaks up and sometimes it makes a .22 cal icepick stab.

      •  Not so much the M43 (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Not that know these things off the top of my head, but it seems the M43 was steel cored and the objection (for importation) is that it WONT break up, and likewise the objection militarily is it won't break up.

        Although some people are absolutely obsessed with bullets, bullet technology has changed very little since about 1895, and most ideas for bullet regulation are instant political goatfucks.  I'm very cynical about Diane Feinstein (well actually I see her as being very cynical)

        The complete solidity of the M43 projectile causes its only drawback—it is very stable, even while traversing tissue. It begins to yaw only after traversing nearly 26 cm (10 in) of tissue.[4] This greatly reduces the wounding effectiveness of the projectile against humans. These wounds were comparable to that of a small handgun round using non-expanding bullets. Unless the round struck something vital, the wound was usually non-fatal, small and quick to heal.

        There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

        by bernardpliers on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 09:52:42 PM PDT

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        •  Not just bullets. (0+ / 0-)

          Caliber and terminal behavior are only one aspect of the damage a bullet does to flesh and bone. Much important is the cartridge (determining its velocity), and more important than that is the combination of the two. A low velocity round, even if it breaks up or tumbles after impact, will do much less damage beyond what the cavity the bullet (or fragments) make alone. High velocity rounds create a much larger wound tract due to cavitation (think of it as a shockwave that goes through the flesh as the bullet passes - it doesn't destroy the tissue, but can still kill it and can still rupture blood vessels not directly touched).

          The absolutely worst combination is a high velocity round that tumbles or fragments enough that it will lose almost all of its velocity before exiting (if it exits at all). Such a bullet/cartridge will transfer most or all of its kinetic energy into the flesh, causing massive damage surrounding the wound tract.

          That is basically the philosophy behind the 5.56mm round. It isn't the highest velocity round, obviously, nor the most massive, but it can tear tissue to shreds even if it is a jacketed round that won't fragment.

          •  JFKs Explosive Headshot? Solid Bullet, Bolt Action (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            An early 1900's design there.

            The AK47 is not a particularly high velocity round - it's at low end of 30-30 ballistics (1890s archaic nomenclature denoting 30 caliber and 30 grains of black powder) It was the M16 that went with a lower energy high velocity small bullet capable of inflicting an explosive wound at under 100 yards. The Soviets liked the idea of this smaller round enough that they developed the AK74.

            And it should be noted that all rifle caliber centerfire rounds larger than .222 do more damage.

            And the US gradually started using a harder round that has been shown in Somalia and Afghanistan to zip right through a person leaving a pencil sized wound channel, which forces the soldiers to aim for the pelvis.

            There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

            by bernardpliers on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:22:33 AM PDT

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          •  And I've Kill Plenty Of Deer With 44 Magnums (0+ / 0-)

            Even though it's only a little bit more powerful than a 223, deer are a lot tougher than people, and the 44 magnum has the ballistics of a golf ball.

            In other words, velocity is often grossly overrated.

            There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

            by bernardpliers on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 08:26:39 AM PDT

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            •  thats the point I was trying to make. (0+ / 0-)

              Velocity has a greater role in determining kinetic energy, but terminal ballistics combined with mass and velocity determines how much of that kinetic energy is transferred to the target before exiting.

              Higher velocity will do more linear damage, but once the round goes out the other side the damage stops. If the round has a velocity and terminal profile to stop before leaving the mass of the target, it will do much much more damage.

              What the concern is in the military and even law enforcement is not lethality, but stopping power. Stopping power is the ability for a round to incapacitate the target immediately. Lethality is not a concern outside of assassination and hunting, which I'm not talking about. Obviously there are other concerns such as penetration of body armor as well, but the 5.56mm isn't a penetrating round so its utility is entirely predicated on stopping power of an unarmored target (particularly upon the torso).

        •  I goofed (0+ / 0-)

          I deleted "don't" from my diary.  But thank you.

      •  And You May Be Thinking Of The AK74 nt (0+ / 0-)

        There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

        by bernardpliers on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 09:54:29 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  There are more than Switzerland, but the point (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Ginny in CO

        is simply that there is no necessary civilian use for such weapons in my opinion.

        AK47 & M16 ammunition

        Those who consider the M16 inhumane include; the International Committee of the Red Cross, Austria, Argentina, Belgium, Bolivia, Bulgaria, Burundi, Cambodia, Cyprus, Germany, Ireland, Latvia, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Mauritius, Mexico, Romania, Samoa, Slovenia, Sweden, Switzerland,
        In addition, Sweden filed complaints about the M16/ammunition during and after the Vietnam war.

        M16, AR15 type ammunition, at close range which is what nearly all mass shootings are, is intended to, and does, cause devastating injuries out of proportion to the caliber. The technical term is "yaw," not tumble, but the casual reader will understand tumble.

        Colt advertised that the M16/AR15 is especially effective precisely because of "tumbling:"

        Unsurpassed as a Sniper Rifle both accurate and lethal, at 500 yards the AR15 makes a complete penetration of 10 gauge steel, or both sides of a steel helmet. On impact the tumbling action of the .223 caliber ammunition increases effectiveness.
        (emphasis added)

        When was the last time there was a long range mass shooting?  

        The DC sniper(s) used a similar weapon to that used in Newtown. But rather than a mass shooting at one location, it was a consecutive set of shootings.

        The ammunition killed with one shot at range, due to the intended devastating effects of the ammunition.

        In each shooting, the victims were killed by a single bullet fired from some distance. The pattern was not detected until after the shootings occurred on October 3.[11]
        Bushmaster's guns are clones of the Colt AR-15, the civilian version of the military M-16.

        "The law is meant to be my servant and not my master, still less my torturer and my murderer." -- James Baldwin. July 11, 1966.

        by YucatanMan on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 10:48:10 PM PDT

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        •  I've Been At A Couple Of Those Murder Scenes (0+ / 0-)

          So I am not unfamiliar with the DC sniper case.  The two people that survived were the ones that were shot from the woods, in the body presumably at a greater distance.  I think everyone that died was shot from their murder car. The guy killed at the Spotsylvania Exxon was shot from across the street.  Shooting at street level in commercial areas, they had to be pretty close to have never winged a passing vehicle. I don't know how many of the people that were killed were shot in the head (some definitely were).

          ALso, the army and many shooters favor the M4 carbine style barrel rather than the full length AR15 barrel, and the ballistics of the bullets suffers greatly.

          That cartridge is like a fancy little camping stove that boils a teacup in record on a nice day.

          Also, notice that this cartridge is not used on game animals over 50 lbs (coyotes).

          Now if you want a real fast bullet in this caliber, check out the 22-250  (same bullet on a necked down 30.06 case) which can drop a deer at 400 yards and is probably a lot closer to fearsome power you attribute to a .223.

          There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

          by bernardpliers on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 02:43:30 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  strong argument as to allowing law enforcement (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      to have access to such too.

      I see a very beautiful planet that seems very inviting and peaceful. Unfortunately, it is not.…We're better than this. We must do better. Cmdr Scott Kelley

      by wretchedhive on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 06:45:11 PM PDT

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    •  funny (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      somebody recently wanted to ban civilian ownership of all rifle ammunition that DOESN'T splinter or tumble, on the grounds that they will penetrate soft body armor.

      Your end of the Constitution is sinking.

      by happymisanthropy on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 07:48:02 PM PDT

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      •  See My Comment Catching Errors Just Upthread (0+ / 0-)

        But yes, bullet regulation is an instant political goatfuck mostly for those reasons you just mentioned.

        There’s always free cheddar in a mousetrap, baby

        by bernardpliers on Wed Apr 03, 2013 at 09:56:00 PM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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