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View Diary: Hannity, Malkin, defend ex-Rutgers coach's abuse (172 comments)

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  •  abuse would have been to let her get killed (0+ / 0-)

    which she most certainly would have if I didn't spank her

    •  No, That's Your Fears, Not Reality, And It Only (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Sir Roderick

      Serves to make you feel better about the absue you perpetrated on your child.

      This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

      by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:13:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Children running out into oncoming traffic (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        moseyon

        don't get killed?  

        There was one time, we got out of the car at an IHOP.  There was a very busy thoroughfare beyond the front of the car past the sidewalk, no fence.

        I was holding her hand as we got out of the car.  She wriggled her hand out of my grasp, rolled underneath the open car door and ran towards the sidewalk, toward the oncoming traffic, laughing.  I couldn't chase after her, the car door blocked my way (I was between two cars).  I didn't have time to shut the door and come after her.

        I was lucky, I was able to stop her with the sound of my voice, but I couldn't risk her doing that again.  I had to teach her that that behavior was dangerous.  

        That was just one of many, many instances.

        •  I Know You Have Your Justifications, But Hitting (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          Sir Roderick, Cassandra Waites

          a toddler is wrong. What you taught her was how to be cognitiviely dissonant and that hitting people to get what you want is ok.

          She was not taught that running into traffic was wrong.

          She was given a pavlovian trigger to avoid traffic or receive pain.

          She was TAUGHT pain=love.

          This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

          by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:23:51 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  how old are your children? (0+ / 0-)

            I'd like to know

            •  I Have Twin Six Year Olds (3+ / 0-)

              And they were both a handful at 3 and I NEVER had to hit them once, even though at times I may have FELT like it. I had the discipline and self control not to do it because it's wrong.

              Somehow, they both learned not to run into traffic or run away at zoos. And they have both done that and I didn't hit them, and they learned anyway.

              This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

              by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:29:09 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I never "felt" like hitting my child (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                AussieforObama2ndterm

                I did it very deliberately.  I never hit my child out of anger, but out of a very earnest desire to as you say, create a pavlovian fear of dying.

                As I said, my oldest was unusual.  She had to be treated differently in the baby group too, in the pre-preschool group.  She was abnormal.  It wasn't that she was hyperactive, just unusually early developed in physical strength and coordination.

                Not all children are alike.  My youngest one was (and is) a handful, but she didn't turn my hair gray.  

                Now that they are grown, they both hit each other equally.  Even though they were treated differently with the spanking, they seem to act the same.  

                •  Sure You Did, But I'm Sure That's How You (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Sir Roderick

                  Justify it to yourself.

                  This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                  by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 11:38:11 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  If you ever feel like hitting your children (0+ / 0-)

                    out of anger, you should talk to a therapist.

                    You seem to know so much about me and my children.

                    When I was angry at my child, I would yell--I am a very effective yeller.

                    I never spanked my child when she was a pain in the ass, and believe me, she was often a pain in the ass.  I never spanked her to get her to do something I wanted.  I spanked her in very specific circumstances--immediately after she had willfully done something extremely physically dangerous to herself that had not resulted in any painful result.

                    •  Umm, You Hit Your Child To Stop Her From (1+ / 0-)
                      Recommended by:
                      Sir Roderick

                      Doing something. That's the same thing as hitting her to get he to do something you wanted.

                      I'm sure you tell yourself it was all perfectly reasonable and you didn't want to do it. "I do this for you and it hurts me more than it hurts you. I do this because I love you."

                      Cognitive dissonance at it's very root essence.

                      You hit her to satisfy YOUR emotional needs. I'm sure you really believe this is not the case. Most abusers feel the same way and use the same justifications.

                      This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                      by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 12:01:31 PM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  my emotional need to keep her alive, yes (0+ / 0-)

                        indeed.

                        If it was such an emotional need to hit her, then why didn't I also hit her sister, or hit her under other circumstances?  Surely my emotional need to hit people wouldn't surface in such specific circumstances?

                        I do enjoy spanking people.  Grown-up people who consent to it.  I'm a dominant and my main love is rope bondage, but my submissives often have a taste for pain and in that circumstance I enjoy the act of spanking.  I know what that feels like and I am in touch with that part of myself.

                        Spanking my toddler wasn't to fulfill an emotional need, it was a very practical decision on my part.  To KEEP HER ALIVE.

                        If you are reading your own circumstance into my life, if YOU are feeling an emotional need to hit your children, I say again, that that is the sort of thing that should be discussed with a therapist.

                        •  LOL! You Actually HIT Your Kid! (1+ / 0-)
                          Recommended by:
                          Sir Roderick

                          And you're into bondage?

                          My oh my.

                          No, you spanking your child was not an emotional need on your part. Not at all.

                          Keep telling yourself that.

                          But my self control over my emotions that enables me to control any impulses towards violence, THAT'S the problem in your view?

                          ROFL!

                          This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                          by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 12:27:52 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  when they returned her to me at the zoo (0+ / 0-)

                            all I could feel was intense relief.  There were so many things that could have happened to her.  There is nothing more agonizing than the feeling I had when she was gone  (it took them a long time to find her because she was so damn far away).  But I forced myself to put on a very angry face and immediately yell at her and give her some swats on her bottom, even though my EMOTIONAL reaction was to want to burst into tears, hold her in my arms and never let her go.  I was so happy to see her again.

                            I still remember every second of that agonizing time, years later.  I had nightmares about it for a long time.

                          •  Indeed, You Were Agonized, And You Hit Your Child (0+ / 0-)

                            as a response to YOUR agony. It was all about YOUR emotional needs and outlets.

                            For you to tell me there was no emotional component is a self deception on your point. There were LOT'S of emotions involved in that event, and for you to deny their role in YOUR behavior is doing yourself and your child a disservice.

                            She ran away at the zoo. She was 3 years old. They do that. She did not deserve to be hit for that. You hitting her was a response based on YOUR emotional state, not a necessity.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 12:59:06 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  some day there will be a situation (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Batya the Toon

                            where your children do not fit the normal mode, and you will be judged just as you have judged me today.  Not all children are the same, not all children respond the same way to the same things, and children have different needs.

                            In everything I have said, you have put yourself in my place, you have put your children in the place of my children.  We are different people and our children are different people.  My mind has not changed from my initial post in this diary.  Not every situation is the same and not everything is black and white.

                            I have answered all your arguments and you have still not been able to see outside your own very closeminded view.  Gently swatting a toddler on the bottom with an open hand to keep them from self harm is not the same thing as taking a belt to a nine-year-old.

                          •  See, You Think I'm Judging YOU, I'm NOt (0+ / 0-)

                            I'm not saying your a bad person, I'm saying I don't think you behaved appropriately.

                            You haven't answered all my arguments, you've gotten defensive in trying to justify behavior that you feel defensive about. And you've justified and justified and justified.

                            The fact that you feel the need to continue to try to justify it says more about how you really feel about that behavior to begin with than you consciously realize. You feel you DO need to justify it. You DO feel defensive about it. There's a reason for that.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 01:10:34 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  you are calling me a child abuser (0+ / 0-)

                            and comparing me to a murderer.  Frankly I'm surprised you haven't been HRed into bojo, so clearly the community agrees with you.

                            I will keep arguing with you as long as you like.  You are deeply insulting me.  The worst I have called you is an asshole.

                          •  No, I'm Saying Your Behavior Was Abusive (0+ / 0-)

                            I believe it was. You feel defensive about it. Wonder why that is?

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 01:14:21 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  you are calling me a child abuser (0+ / 0-)

                            just look upthread where you said this:

                            You hit her to satisfy YOUR emotional needs. I'm sure you really believe this is not the case. Most abusers feel the same way and use the same justifications.
                            That sure sounds to me like you were calling me an abuser.
                          •  Nope (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            cordgrass

                            I'm saying that people who ARE abusers use the same types of justifications.

                            I don't know if you are an abuser or not, I only know that the behavior you have described is in my opinion, abusive.

                            However, if it was not chronic and happened only occasionally under certain circumstance, I would not consider you to be a child abuser, I would consider you to have used bad judgement on several occasions.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 01:22:25 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Cordgrass, You Are NOT A Bad Person, IMO (0+ / 0-)

                            I just want to make that very, very clear. I am NOT judging you. You recc'd my last post, and I hope that was not accidental. This is a subject that is INCREDIBLY delicate, and emotionally charged, and there are many, unconscious PROGRAMMED responses that people have to this subject.

                            When you hit your child, as punishment, as you have indicated, it cannot help but be an emotional event, on all levels. Do you agree?

                            Just think about that.

                            For you AND your child.

                            You seem to think that causing them THIS pain and humiliation will achieve some goal, and yet, you also dismiss it as "just a pat". If it's "just a pat", how will it achieve your goal?

                            Why do you maintain this contradiction?

                            Do you see what I'm getting at here?

                            You were "spanked" as a child, were you not?

                            How do you feel about that?

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 06:45:02 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  So far none of this merits an HR in my opinion (5+ / 0-)

                            but I don't agree with it for a moment.

                          •  Beetwasher, cordgrass HAS answered your arguments. (3+ / 0-)

                            Repeatedly, thoroughly, and rationally.

                            Characterizing every single answer as "defensiveness" and "justification" doesn't mean you haven't been answered.

                          •  Umm, There Was Nothing To "Answer" (0+ / 0-)

                            I was stating my opinion that the behavior she described was abusive.

                            She disagreed and got defensive.

                            There's no "rational" reason to hit a child, especially a toddler. That's my opinion. There's no "answer" to that, there's only defensiveness and supposed justifications for doing so.

                            In my opinion, it is never justified. She disagrees. That's her perogative. I never asked her for justifications nor was it required. She felt it was necessary.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 01:32:50 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  If there was nothing to "answer" (2+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            cordgrass, starfu

                            then why this?

                            You haven't answered all my arguments, you've gotten defensive
                          •  LOL! She Said She Answered All My Arguments! (0+ / 0-)

                            Whatever that means, I was responding to her!

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 01:36:27 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Uh-huh. (3+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            cordgrass, Wood Dragon, starfu

                            So essentially:  your opinion is just your opinion, but no argument given to support disagreement with it can ever be anything but defensiveness and justification.  And all the things you're saying to support your own opinion ... aren't arguments?

                            You sure you don't believe in absolutes?  Because you're sounding like you do.

                          •  Is That What I Said? Where Did I Say That? (0+ / 0-)

                            Oh, that's right, I never said that, that's all in your imagination.

                            Yes, my opinion is just my opinion. That's a problem for you? You sound like you WANT me to speak in absolutes so you might have something to hang your hat on.

                            It's very simple. I stated what I believed. I believe striking a child is never justified.  Cordgrass, even though I wasn't speaking to her, felt the need to jump in and claim that yes, she hit her child, but it was entirely justified. And then proceeded to justify and justify and justify.

                            Yeah, I'd call that defensive. I didn't ask her to do that. I wasn't even speaking to her.  Who is she trying to convince that her behavior was justified? Me? Who the fuck cares what some asshole like me on the internet thinks? I made it very clear I don't think it's every jusitified, and yet she continues and continues to try to justify it. To me? Or to herself? You decide.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 01:52:57 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Where did you say that? (0+ / 0-)

                            Right about here:

                            That's my opinion. There's no "answer" to that, there's only defensiveness and supposed justifications for doing so.
                            And no, the "I wasn't even talking to her" special pleading won't wash.  You say something in a public venue, you are speaking to everybody who reads it.  You say "X is child abuse", you are in fact accusing everybody who does X of child abuse.

                            ... and you know what, this has turned into a discussion about the discussion instead of about the issue.  That's never a good sign.  I think I might take a few hours' break and revisit this evening.

                          •  That Doesn't Say What You Apparently Think It Does (0+ / 0-)

                            To make it clearer:  That's my opinion. I don't see her "answering' that, I see her being defensive and justifying her actions.

                            I wasn't saying "My opinions are fact and can only be responded to with justifications and defensiveness. There's a difference.

                            this has turned into a discussion about the discussion instead of about the issue.  That's never a good sign.  I think I might take a few hours' break and revisit this evening.
                            Yeah, gee, wonder how that happened.

                            This post is dedicated to myself, without whom, I'd be somebody else. Though I'd still be an asshole. My Music: [http://www.myspace.com/beetwasher]

                            by Beetwasher on Thu Apr 04, 2013 at 02:11:08 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

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