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View Diary: Dear Christians who oppose “gay marriage” because it isn't "Biblical marriage"... (118 comments)

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  •  the story actually goes... (11+ / 0-)

    She ran away back to her father and her husband got her back. They tried to travel too late and wound up in a town run hy Benjamites. An old man saw them abou to camp in the square and took them in because the town was dangerous to outsiders. Later in the night some of the Benjamites came to the house and demanded to the old man that he bring the man staying with him out so they could rape him. Theold man begged them not to and offered up his virgin daughter and the guys concubine instead. The benjamites raped them both, the concubine died from it. The husband was mad about this and cut her up and sent a piece to each tribe in order to show them what the benjamites did. This led to the near wiping out ofbthe tribe of Benjamin and led to the thing described in the diary where the four hundred survivors of benjamin carried off wives.
    Its a fucked up story and was on of the few parts of the bible that I found interesting as a kid. I was raieed supe religious and didn't hav tv or any thing so the screwed up stuff in the bible was my horror movie.

    •  sorry about typos (6+ / 0-)

      Typing long posts on my phone is tough with my big ole paws.

    •  also (3+ / 0-)

      The man wasn't condemned for turning the concubine over but the husband got the rest of Israel together to demand tha the men who raped his concubine to death be brought out and put to death. Also I don't recall him beating his concubine.  Now it was obvious in the story that she didn't want to be his concubine,  but the story makes no mention of abus on his part. That comes from the street gang in the city they stopped in.

      •  Thanks for clarifying this. (0+ / 0-)

        Sirenus's version was rank misrepresentation.

        •  The word "husband" is used in revised versions. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          In earlier versions, the word is "master."

          And it was the master who sent the concubine out to be raped and abused. The house owner's daughter stayed inside.

          They let her go at daybreak, and she made it back to the house; you have to wonder if she knocked on the door ad begged to be let in.

          Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

          by Sirenus on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 11:07:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  Really? Go read the story. (0+ / 0-)

          The Bible says that the woman was unfaithful. That usually means a lover, right?

          She did run away.

          Yes, she ran to her father. Yes, on the way home, they were taken in by a householder. Yes, the householder offered his virgin daughter as well to the mob. Excuse me if I decided not to write an extra two hundred words to explain all this.

          But the virgin daughter was never shoved out the door. The concubine was.

          And was raped all through the night.  

          They let her go at daybreak. She made it back to the house. Her master--the word used in earlier versions of the Bible, because a concubine is not a wife, she is a piece of property--is described as opening the door to "go on his way"--note that he's not going to bother to try to find her and help her--and almost falling over her.  He speaks to her; she does not answer. Note also that it's never said that she's dead.

          He loads her on a donkey takes her home, cuts her into twelve pieces--let's hope she was dead by then!-- and sensd those pieces to the twelve tribes.

          So exactly how is my version "rank misrepresentation?"

          Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

          by Sirenus on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 11:30:21 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  These parts: (0+ / 0-)
            her owner, who lied and said that he'd not hurt her if she came back to him. She did and after viciously beating her, he turned her over to a mob to be gang-raped for an entire night. Then cut her into twelve pieces and sent a piece to each of the twelve tribes of Israel as a warning to other concubines.
            He didn't lie.  He didn't beat her.  He didn't turn her over to the mob; the householder did.  It wasn't a warning to other concubines; it was a condemnation of the Benjaminites who raped and murdered her, and a means of rallying the rest of the country to rise against them.

            So, yeah.  Misrepresentation.  Not saying this guy was innocent of any wrongdoing, but you got your facts wrong.

            Incidentally:  the Hebrew word for 'husband' is the same as the word for 'master'.  (Guess what?  So is the English word for 'husband'; the only reason we don't all know that is that the English usage of the word in the sense of 'master' is now archaic and obsolete.)  It is used for both a man who keeps a concubine and a man who weds a wife.  Both translations are equally accurate.

            •  Really? Maybe you need to read the story again. (0+ / 0-)

              The story is about a Levite and his concubine.  

              So who shoved her out to the mob?  Not the householder!

              "But they wouldn't listen to him. So the Levite took hold of his concubine and pushed her out the door. The men of the town abused her all night, taking turns raping her until morning. Finally, at dawn they let her go."

              And you can spout all you want about this man's oh so pious intentions. I'm actually reading the story. Very carefully. With, yes, an entirely different mindset. Of a woman seeing how another woman was treated.
              Screw all the religious crap.

              She got back to the house at dawn. Collapsed on the threshold .Is  described as "lifting her hands towards the door. Quite possibly still alive at that point. Was he waiting with the door cracked, hoping she could make it back?

              Hell, no.
              "When her master got up in the morning"--no problem sleeping, I see--" and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way-- not even going take a few minutes to check if she's still alive somewhere?-- "there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold."

              Does he pick her up? Does he call for the householder to help? To fetch a physician? Don't make me laugh.

              "He said to her, "Get up and let us go," but there was no answer. Then he placed her on the donkey; and the man arose and went to his home."

              And when he gets her home, is there a funeral?  A grave? Any sign of respect?  Again, hell no! Just chop her up like a dead ewe and send pieces of her to al the tribes! Couldn't send a letter, or a messenger. So much easier and so much more dramatic to send chunks of raw meat.

              So....howls of outrage all around. 9/11! 9/11!!  A great excuse for a full-blown war. Because one woman got killed? Or because his property was destroyed?

              Because, at the end of another dozen verses full of slaughter, the lives of women who never lifted a sword against the Israelites really don't matter.

              "So the assembly sent twelve thousand fighting men with instructions to go to Jabesh Gilead and put to the sword those living there, including the women and children."

              What brave men! What heroes! One concubine, tossed out to a mob by her owner to save his own neck. He obviously didn't think it a big deal. Until he got the idea that  chopping her up and sending out fly-blown chunks of her was a great way to stir things up.  

              Maybe you read that and find it heroic. I read it and want to puke.  

              Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

              by Sirenus on Mon Apr 08, 2013 at 05:29:34 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Whose comment are you responding to? (0+ / 0-)

                In what language does "Not saying this guy was innocent of any wrongdoing, but you got your facts wrong" translate to "His actions were pious and heroic and you are wrong for condemning him"?

                "The Levite took hold of his concubine" -- I had to look at   a list of translations to find out where you got "the Levite" there.  The original Hebrew says "the man" -- vayachazek ha-ish, not vayachazek ha-Levi.  Your translation interpolates "the Levite" to tell you what that translator decided was the correct solution to the ambiguity in the text, which does not tell us which man did it.

                What does anything else you said have to do with any of the other points I bolded in my comment above?

    •  Her husband got her back? (1+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:

      A concubine is not a wife. Her owner is not her husband.  I don't care if the word husband is used.

      And it was her owner who sent her out to the rapists. Not the man who had taken them in. And the virgin daughter was not sent out to them, only the concubine.

      Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

      by Sirenus on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 11:02:26 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  The concubine may function as wife (0+ / 0-)

        but doesn't have the status.

        In the case of Sarai/Sarah who is Abram/Abraham's sister wife/concubine, she seems to have gone with other men as an escort/prostitute/whore/token of hospitality in the case of the Egyptian nobels, and Abimelech certainly, and the "angels" who visit her in her tent to get her with child procreate with her in the same way the virgin Mary, wife of Joseph procreates.

        Hagar is essentially promoted from handmaiden to second wife when she bears Ishmael and Sarah regains her status as first wife by producing Issac. According to the story neither child necessarily comes from Abram/Abraham as Hagar may have already been pregnant when she joined up with them in Egypt.

        We might easily consider the men who have sex with women to whom they are not married adulterers rather than husbands or those whose wives are inseminated and  have children with other men cuckolds if you prefer, but for the times and places that come before Moses and his invention of religion I'd consider them spouses.

        Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

        by rktect on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 11:58:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  In the those times and places, a "wife" was still (0+ / 0-)


          And "she seems to have gone with other men"?  Nice, that implication that the woman was perfectly happy to be handed over to whatever man her husband want to impress, placate or deceive.  (I seem to remember Abram passing his wife off as his sister. Coward!)

          I seriously doubt that "she" whether wife, concubine or slave, ever had much of a choice.

          Freedom has two enemies: Those who want to control everyone around them...and those who feel no need to control themselves.

          by Sirenus on Mon Apr 08, 2013 at 05:33:39 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  The story begins in the time of Rim Sin c 1770 BC (0+ / 0-)

      The story of Abraham and Lot first gets interesting in Genesis 14 where we find out who, what, where, and when.

      The story you refer to is in Judges 19 in a period that comes half a millenia after the events of Genesis 14 and tells of a Levite who travels to Bethlehem to collect his unfaithful concubine and seems to be there mostly to compare the hospitality of the men of Bethlehem with the men of Gibeah who were Benjaminites. Its very similar to Genesis 19 where the men of the town want the strangers to come out to have sex with them but in Genesis 19 it results in the destruction of Sodom and in Judges 19 just the destruction of the Benjaminites.

      In Genesis 14-19 Lot lives in Sodom where he has a house and a number of women who work in the house that are restored to him and there is not yet any such thing as the state of Israel or the tribe of Benjamin. In Judges 19 its just the one unfaithful concubine or whore that is returned.

      In the Bible Canaan is considered an accursed place where absolutely nothing is legitimate according to what is considered right and proper by law abiding men and where prostitution makes Sodom and Gomorrah the Vegas of the middle bronze age.

      Every lugal or big man makes his own rules by force of arms so that comes to be the role of Abraham as regards protecting Lot and his women.

      4 At the time when Amraphel was king of Shinar,[a] Arioch king of Ellasar, Kedorlaomer king of Elam and Tidal king of Goyim, 2 these kings went to war against Bera king of Sodom, Birsha king of Gomorrah, Shinab king of Admah, Shemeber king of Zeboyim, and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar). 3 All these latter kings joined forces in the Valley of Siddim (that is, the Dead Sea Valley). 4 For twelve years they had been subject to Kedorlaomer, but in the thirteenth year they rebelled.
      Genesis 14  before translation to English, strings together fragments of mostly Akkadian rather than as was once thought Elamite roots. "Ched" is an afroasiatic suffix (Egyptian "Ked" illustrated by a boat drifting downstream) used to indicate a state of being; mar/ched, tou/ched, deta/ched etc; An omer is a common ANE measure of about a half gallon. The Akkadian root "rl" means uncircumcised and in context here means illigitimate.

      In Akkadian we have one king Amraphel in power "URU Ki" or at "this place here", rather than a second king Arioch or Aruki. Rather than "Arioch king of Ellasar" we would now have (URU Ki el asar ched o rl a omer tD Elam) all perfectly good Akkadian, most of it grammatical and an interesting comment.

          Genesis 14:1 gives a list of four names: "It was in the time of Amraphel king of Shinar, Aricoch king of Ellasar, Chedor-laomer king of Elam, and Tidal king of the Goiim..." Traditionally these have been taken as four separate kings

          As a single title for one king who has unified several states it comes out Amraphel king of Shinar (ruler of Eshnunna),(URU KI el in charge of this place here) asar ched o rl a omer Elam (illigitimately ruling by the standards of Elam) Tidal goiim (those people) have created a state and stretched the extent of their power.

      5 In the fourteenth year, Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him went out and defeated the Rephaites in Ashteroth Karnaim, the Zuzites in Ham, the Emites in Shaveh Kiriathaim 6 and the Horites in the hill country of Seir, as far as El Paran near the desert. 7 Then they turned back and went to En Mishpat (that is, Kadesh), and they conquered the whole territory of the Amalekites, as well as the Amorites who were living in Hazezon Tamar.

      8 Then the king of Sodom, the king of Gomorrah, the king of Admah, the king of Zeboyim and the king of Bela (that is, Zoar) marched out and drew up their battle lines in the Valley of Siddim 9 against Kedorlaomer king of Elam, Tidal king of Goyim, Amraphel king of Shinar and Arioch king of Ellasar—four kings against five. 10 Now the Valley of Siddim was full of tar pits, and when the kings of Sodom and Gomorrah fled, some of the men fell into them and the rest fled to the hills. 11 The four kings seized all the goods of Sodom and Gomorrah and all their food; then they went away. 12 They also carried off Abram’s nephew Lot and his possessions, since he was living in Sodom.

      13 A man who had escaped came and reported this to Abram the Hebrew. Now Abram was living near the great trees of Mamre the Amorite, a brother of Eshkol and Aner, all of whom were allied with Abram. 14 When Abram heard that his relative had been taken captive, he called out the 318 trained men born in his household and went in pursuit as far as Dan. 15 During the night Abram divided his men to attack them and he routed them, pursuing them as far as Hobah, north of Damascus. 16 He recovered all the goods and brought back his relative Lot and his possessions, together with the women and the other people.

      I read this as Abraham correcting the illegitimate standard and enforcing the legitimate one rescuing Lot and his women from being taken into servitude in lieu of p[aying the tax on their business and saving the king of Sodom what amounts to a tithe of 10%
      17 After Abram returned from defeating Kedorlaomer and the kings allied with him, the king of Sodom came out to meet him in the Valley of Shaveh (that is, the King’s Valley).

      18 Then Melchizedek king of Salem brought out bread and wine. He was priest of God Most High, 19 and he blessed Abram, saying,

      “Blessed be Abram by God Most High,
          Creator of heaven and earth.
      20 And praise be to God Most High,
          who delivered your enemies into your hand.”

      Then Abram gave him a tenth of everything.

      21 The king of Sodom said to Abram, “Give me the people and keep the goods for yourself.”

      22 But Abram said to the king of Sodom, “With raised hand I have sworn an oath to the Lord, God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth, 23 that I will accept nothing belonging to you, not even a thread or the strap of a sandal, so that you will never be able to say, ‘I made Abram rich.’ 24 I will accept nothing but what my men have eaten and the share that belongs to the men who went with me—to Aner, Eshkol and Mamre. Let them have their share.”

      Live Free or Die --- Investigate, Incarcerate

      by rktect on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 11:26:19 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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