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View Diary: THREE times as many Science degrees as there are Science jobs! (298 comments)

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  •  first I thought this was about science (7+ / 0-)

    and then in the diary it talks about IT. What a joke. A continuation of xenophobic nonsense from this diarist. IT is not the same as Science.

    Disclaimer: I am an IT Professional.

    •  It is about "STEM" jobs vs rhetoric (24+ / 0-)

      It's wonderful when America attracts brilliant young innovators from abroad, but we also need to do something to ensure that brilliant young Americans can find STEM jobs.

      look for my eSci diary series Thursday evening.

      by FishOutofWater on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 06:01:09 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Immigration and foreigners (6+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Deep Texan, cryonaut, FG, amitxjoshi, Agathena, Loge

        is this diarists issue - everything else is window dressing.

        •  The diarist is an minority immigrant (7+ / 0-)

          who cares about the discrimination of older experienced U.S. workers.
          You are an evil immigration attorney who makes a living off of the practice.

          •  I'd no idea (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            IT Professional, GoGoGoEverton

            file that one in the back of my memory.

            My wife also is an immigrant. I lived outside the US for years.

            How big is your personal carbon footprint?

            by ban nock on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 06:36:00 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

          •  what who you call evil there (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:

            That's some personal hostility.

            •  You should talk (7+ / 0-)

              as you troll the diarist.

              Offer up some solid arguments about the facts instead of trolling him.

              "Justice is a commodity"

              by joanneleon on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 07:03:14 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  the diarist has shown (0+ / 0-)

                to only offer up these deeply anti-foreigner diaries. In previous diaries he's also offered misleading "facts" to try to make a point.

                In this bogus diary he labels IT jobs as Science, which is nonsense. In a previous diary he mixed up IT with Engineering.
                Neither Science or Engineering have much to do with IT.

                Additionally, in my personal experience, there are too many unqualified IT college graduates, that I can see how some companies would turn to the talent from abroad. Personally, in my hiring, I haven't turned to H1Bs because I managed to find qualified people but it was a close call.

                •  The diarist is a foreign born immigrant. (5+ / 0-)

                  The diarist sees what importing guest workers into any profession does to that profession.

                  Employment based immigration where the employers are allowed to bypass the local workforce is a death spiral and leads to the situation we have where the DOW goes up and unemployment stays high.

                  The diarist has a good job and is nearing retirement and gains nothing by these diaries.  The diarist cares about others who are wondering why they have not gotton the call back for those jobs they applied for where they met every single requirement.

                  •  I am a foreign born immigrant myself (0+ / 0-)

                    Who doesn't begrudge other foreign born immigrants having a chance at the American dream.

                    Many people who come here on an H1B visa, apply for green card, stay in the US and become productive members of our society.

                    I am sure there are many cases where H1Bs were hired for the cost effectiveness, but there are many many other cases where they were hired because of shortages in some fields, and/or because they were much more qualified than the "local workforce".

                    Perhaps some of those others who have no gotten a call back, for the jobs they applied for, is because they did not actually meet every single requirement or there were others better qualified. It's not all black and white. But you are portraying it as black and white, those damn foreigners are stealing our American jobs.

                    •  Would you object to a requirement (4+ / 0-)

                      of the H-1B visa requiring the employer to prove, (not state), that there is no U.S. worker willing to do the job before being allowed to import a guest worker?

                      Would you be willing to disallow companies being able to use their U.S. workers to train their foreign guest worker?

                      The mere fact that a US worker is traing a guest worker proves that the US worker is the one is already trained and the guest worker is the one not yet qualified.

                      •  I would object (0+ / 0-)

                        Because a US worker needs to be more than just willing, they are also need to be at least just as qualified for the position. All things considered equal I would absolutely try to give preference to US workers, but to codify it into law would potentially require employers to hire those less qualified.

                        As for training, it is entirely possible for a superbly qualified candidate to need some more specific job training, so lack of training is not the same as not being qualified.

                        •  So then would you accept the law as follows.. (0+ / 0-)

                          your words:

                          "US worker needs to be more than just willing, they are also need to be at least just as qualified for the position"

                          In this exact situation would you support any law that would restrict the employer from chosing the handcuffed employee over the U.S. worker when they are identically and exactly equally qualified?

                          How would this exact situation described "potentially require employers to hire those less qualified"?  We have determined that they are identically qualified in every way.

                          •  the problem is (0+ / 0-)

                            that it is difficult to ascertain if the candidates are exactly qualified. And there is no way for anyone to truly enforce that law. All someone would have to do is say that based on their evaluation the person hired was more qualified.

                            Who has determined that the 2 applicants are identically qualified?

                            Anyways, my wife (who is an H1B as I've previously stated) works at a State University that by their own guidelines gives preference to Americans in the hiring process. They still hire a ton of H1Bs because there are not enough decently qualified Americans applying. All the H1Bs earn exactly the same as Americans and are treated well. What's the problem with that?

                            Now that is a State institution, but I would not make that determination for a private business. I would not want my decisions of who to hire to be second guessed and subject to frivolous lawsuits. So yes, I would oppose any kind of restrictions.

                •  Since When? (4+ / 0-)

                  Additionally, in my personal experience, there are too many unqualified IT college graduates

                  Is There an "Alarming" Shortage of IT Workers?

                  The post above is from 1999. The argument over guest worker visa programs, and the H-B program in particular, has been going on for more than a decade now.

                  Given that you and others are so vehement that there is a 'skilled worker shortage' (to conveniently go along with the 'unskilled worker shortage'), and given that the hue and cry has been going on for almost twenty years now, you can no doubt point to one piece of legislation from Washington DC which would incentivize a STEM education. Certainly there is at least one program out there to forgive student loan debt for engineering graduates, 'cause they do it for teachers and firefighters and without an engineer to design that class room or that fire house you just have a bunch of people standing around -- point me to one piece of legislation designed to eliminate this supposed 'skills gap' that been around for so very long now.

                  And finally, one more time, read the 'Highlights' of the Fiscal 2011 Characteristics of Specialty Occupation Workers, and go back and look at prior year reports, and tell me this isn't a scam.

                  I won't be coming home tonight, my generation will put it right - Genesis 9:3

                  by superscalar on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 07:59:22 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Go another decade earlier at least (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    Physics Ph.Ds have been surprised at how hard it is to find work since 1990 easily, and although that's coincident with the end of the cold war, I don't think it was new then.

                    Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

                    by elfling on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 09:55:39 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                  •  Agreed and take it one step further (0+ / 0-)

                    The entire education system has been getting more and more rigged to hard skills rather than soft skills. Yet companies have been shifting more and more to a blurring of lines between IT and the rest of the company.

                    The result? More and more need for workers with more than just technical skills and fewer and fewer workers who have more than just technical skills. It's not a "skills gap" in a traditional sense, it's a lack of focus on turning out people capable of being complete workers. Far from legislation to address it, we're actively going the opposite direction.

                    As an IT professional, I have been keenly aware of how difficult it is to find people who will really be able to do an excellent job in a modern environment. Offering a very good salary at a major company in a major metropolitan area, the pickings are still slim finding someone who can hit the ground running. Companies do not take the time and money to focus on training and creating a well-running team,which would alleviate some of this.  

                    But H1B visa holders absolutely do not solve the problem at all - all they do is provide a cheaper source of equally or lesser qualified labor. The real answer is to recognize that having a good workforce is a cooperative endeavor, not something that can be measured by the number of people who can pass a standardized test.

                    Want a progressive global warming novel, not a right wing rant? Go to and check out New World Orders

                    by eparrot on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 03:25:36 PM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                •  STEM workers (4+ / 0-)

                  Science, Technology, Engineering; Mathematics.
                  It is a FACT that H1B workers are being imported for the sole purpose of using them for cheap labor at the expense of American STEM workers in a country with over 7.5% unemployment!

                  +++ The law is a weapon used to bludgeon us peasants into submission. It is not to be applied to the monied elite.

                  by cybersaur on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 08:16:26 AM PDT

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      •  You can't convince (16+ / 0-)

        the group of otherwise really good people here who insist on trolling every single diary this diarist writes.  They are determined to undermine him with accusations of xenophobia and racism. They rarely if ever address the facts that the diarist brings to the table, nor do they ever address the overall problem.  

        "Justice is a commodity"

        by joanneleon on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 07:02:22 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Eh... (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:

          I am open to discussions about whether we are granting too many H1B visas, particularly for IT positions. I am actually quite sympathetic to the diarist's point on this one limited aspect of immigration policy.  In this diary, so far so good. I will restrain myself.  But the IT jobs problem so often gets conflated with all sorts of other immigration issues and when we start hearing about how people should come "legally", without any understanding of the barriers involved or empathy for the families that have been here for years, then I feel OK about jumping in.  

          “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

          by ivorybill on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 10:38:33 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

    •  In my experience (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cryonaut, Agathena

      there is far less xenophobia amongst those of us with science degrees than among those who work in IT - and we are not just talking a couple of percentage points here.

      •  Now you have a science degree? (0+ / 0-)

        Before you said you were an immigration attorney.

        •  Why (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          sny, FishOutofWater

          do you keep doing this?  I've never seen stevej say that he is an immigration attorney.  If you have proof of that, then go and find it and post it here with a link.  I've seen you do this so many times.  You have a solid argument in some of the diaries that you write, but you competely undermine yourself when you keep accusing people who troll your diaries of being immigration attorneys.

          Go and find that proof or STOP accusing stevej of being an immigration attorney.  I support you in the issue that you are writing about, but if I keep seeing this bullshit accusation, I really feel that I have to stop supporting your diaries altogether.

          He's been trolling you, no doubt.  He's in every one of your diaries using ad hom accusations of xenophobia and racism and not addressing the data and facts that you bring forth.  But you are handling it really poorly by calling him an immigration lawyer, using that as another form of ad hom, essentially telling your readers to ignore anything he says because you believe he has an agenda.  Address his arguments, or lack of arguments (which is usually the case).  Force him to argue the facts instead of trying to take you down with ad hom.  And I say this as a person who has a lot of respect and admiration for stevej on probably every other issue.  But I loathe what he's been doing with this one.

          "Justice is a commodity"

          by joanneleon on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 06:59:57 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  I will follow your advice. (0+ / 0-)

            You seem to be fair.

          •  Agreed (4+ / 0-)

            It doesn't matter whether stevej is an 'evil immigration attorney' or not, just as it doesn't matter whether IT Professional is a 'racist xenophobic immigrant hater' or not.

            What matters are the facts, everything else is just non-sequitur bullshit.

            By the way, I have an electrical engineering degree, which I would consider a science degree, and what's more I understand what the word xenophobia means.

            fear and hatred of strangers or foreigners or of anything that is strange or foreign
            The crux of the 'immigration debate' today isn't about fear, and it isn't about hatred, and it really isn't about people specifically -- it's about economics.

            I won't be coming home tonight, my generation will put it right - Genesis 9:3

            by superscalar on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 07:41:57 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Well part of it is about economics (0+ / 0-)

              When the discussion focuses specifically on H1B, it usually is more about economics, and less about xenophobia.

              But identity politics has a whole lot to do with the immigration debate.  When you hear people say that lawbreakers should suffer, and that people who want to immigrate should do so legally - without any real understanding of the barriers in place - well, yes, sometimes xenophobia is hiding there.  

              “If the misery of the poor be caused not by the laws of nature, but by our institutions, great is our sin.” Charles Darwin

              by ivorybill on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 10:41:41 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

      •  I have both (4+ / 0-)

        a science (well, engineering degree) and have worked in the IT field for many years.  I disagree with your assessment.  And I really resent the stereotyping that you are doing.  

        "Justice is a commodity"

        by joanneleon on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 06:54:30 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  LOL (0+ / 0-)

        That is hilarious.  Love to see that "scientific" survey you did there.

        I'm not liberal. I'm actually just anti-evil, OK? - Elon James White

        by Satya1 on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 08:32:35 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  Many of the pure science grads I know (6+ / 0-)

      are working outside of their fields.

      Fry, don't be a hero! It's not covered by our health plan!

      by elfling on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 07:46:20 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  What's so xenophobic about it? (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      IT Professional, bleeding blue

      The only reason those immigrants get the jobs is because they work for so much less. If they were paying everybody the same, regardless of whether they're a citizen or on a work visa or here illegally or whatever, then you'd have a point. But we all know that's not the case.

      First they came for the farm workers, and I said nothing.

      by Hannibal on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 08:26:59 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

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