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View Diary: THREE times as many Science degrees as there are Science jobs! (298 comments)

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  •  How many of the computer science degrees ... (7+ / 0-)

    are from for-profit colleges, and are basically worthless?

    Part of the glut is due to the recession, and part is due to the import of cheaper foreign workers, but it's also true that these numbers are exaggerated by the schools who scam naive students by making them pay for worthless degrees which don't give them any guarantee of employment.

    •  no degree is a guarantee, but I'd wish any one to (3+ / 0-)

      find a job in a subject they've been trained.

      How big is your personal carbon footprint?

      by ban nock on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 06:37:43 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

    •  And even if we just look at decent universities... (3+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      cryonaut, catwho, i dont get it

      How shocking is it that 1/3rd of CS graduates don't end up getting jobs in IT?  Is it the bottom 3rd?

      I know a lot of C and D students that have managed to push their way to graduation, but have no hope of employment.  Not only is their transcript poor, but they can't answer basic interview questions in their senior year.  

      There's always some kids who don't get the basic idea that they have to retain what we teach them.  Sometimes kids will flat-out complain that my senior elective requires a sophomore class as a prerequisite, "but it's been years since we did that."  Those kids are not going to get developer jobs with their CS degrees.

      Taking jokes seriously is the exact mirror activity of laughing if someone says they have cancer. --jbou

      by Caj on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 08:36:06 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Bill Gates is a dropout (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Noelle in MPLS

        He wasn't even able to make it to graduation, like these C and D students you look down upon.

        What would you say about him?

        •  That he was really good at borrowing (5+ / 0-)

          MS DOS was borrowed from CPM; which was more stable

          Windows was borrowed from Apple, as was the mouse.

          Excel was borrowed from Lotus 1-2-3

          MSWord was borrowed from WordStar and still isn't as good as the original

          IE would not be the preeminent browser if Bill hadn't insisted it was part of the operating system, and the same goes for Outlook, which has yet to catch up to the basic functionality of Lotus Notes (especially in calendaring in a business environment).

          Bill has made his fortune on borrowed ideas and strong-arm tactics.

          History should teach humility and prudence, but America doesn't seem to learn. I've never seen a virgin who loses her innocence so often. -- Gordon Wood

          by stormicats on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 10:20:54 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  he is also brilliant (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            i dont get it

            and capable. That helps. To spit on his achievements like you just did, without understanding of what it takes to achieve as much as he did, does not cast you in great light.

          •  This is a bit irrelevant, but: (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            cryonaut, catwho, Noelle in MPLS
            Excel was borrowed from Lotus 1-2-3

            MSWord was borrowed from WordStar and still isn't as good as the original

            Both of these are wrong, unless "borrowed" means "the same type of thing as."

            Excel gained an initial foothold because it could import from and export to Lotus, but that doesn't mean it was "borrowed" from Lotus 1-2-3.  It was the main competitor to Lotus 1-2-3.

            Wordstar was also a competitor to Word, but not much of one, because Micropro decided to stop developing their stable version to create a clean re-write.  By the time they were done, they were out of the market.

            Taking jokes seriously is the exact mirror activity of laughing if someone says they have cancer. --jbou

            by Caj on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 11:42:25 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

        •  there are always dumb people (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          i dont get it

          in all professions. Unfortunately the C and D students in the University IT departments often would not have the logical thinking necessary to do well in IT positions. I see it all the time when I hire for a programming positions. There are many people who claim to have IT degrees, who fail profoundly on the logical tests I give them.

          •  What do you have to say about college dropouts? (0+ / 0-)

            Are they higher or lower than C and D graduates?

            You seem to classify people's worth to be employed based on their grade in college.  Where do college dropouts, such as Bill Gates and Steve Jobs stand in this hierarchy of yours?

            •  Depends on why they dropped out. (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              cryonaut, i dont get it

              If they dropped out to make a zillion dollars in the software industry, awesome.

              If they dropped out because of family or financial circumstances, that says nothing about one's abilities either way.

              If they dropped out because they couldn't pass low-level courses in computer programming, I would not hire that person to write the code that manages your bank account or your insulin pump.  I'm sorry if that offends you.

              Taking jokes seriously is the exact mirror activity of laughing if someone says they have cancer. --jbou

              by Caj on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 11:29:12 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I get what you are saying, (0+ / 0-)

                and I actually wish the technicals I have had to take at job interviews dealt with logic questions, which have nothing to do with the latest buzzwords and syntax and formatting, and the meaning of buzzwords.   Instead, I have to study the meanings of acronyms and all the random questions on the internet that the interviewer found.  Sometimes I know what the next question will be because they just downloaded the same list i did the night before.  It is fustrating, but i have to play the game to get in the door.

                Most hiring managers consider all coders to be interchangeable, even  thouth the difference between a good coder and a bad coder can be 10 to 1 in productivity.

                The problem with the importation of the guest worker program is that coders are now seen as a comodity and valued as a price per butt, rather than inate ability of each.

                Some staffing companies send in a "team" where there is only one person really doint the work, and the others are for billing the client.  The others can sit and pick their nose all day, the client gets billed the same for each.

                •  and that's what I do (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Caj, i dont get it

                  being a hiring manager who is also a computer programmer. I give all candidates a test with 2 problems. 1 to read a program and explain what it does, and 2 to write a program to accomplish a particular task. Syntax is unimportant but logical thinking is. You'd be surprised at the amount of people who technically qualify just fine based on their resume, but who fail miserably on this fairly simple test.

                  I'd say I catch those talentless C and D students before they screw up the department with their lack of ability.

        •  Your question is misleading. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          cryonaut

          Bill Gates quit college to start a company.  He was not "unable to make it to graduation."  

          Furthermore, Gates clearly displayed advanced abilities to his professors while he was a student.  He was utterly unlike the C and D student who barely manages to finish.

          Taking jokes seriously is the exact mirror activity of laughing if someone says they have cancer. --jbou

          by Caj on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 11:23:43 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  Einstein was a C student in several (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Noelle in MPLS

            subjects.

            What would you say about him?

            •  Is that an "Internet fact"? (2+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              cryonaut, i dont get it

              This is an urban myth:  Einstein did well in school.  Here is one of his school records, reflecting a 6 (maximum score) in Algebra, Geometry, and Physics.  His only iffy grade was in French.

              Taking jokes seriously is the exact mirror activity of laughing if someone says they have cancer. --jbou

              by Caj on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 11:36:05 AM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  I was looking at the same transcript. (0+ / 0-)

                It shows nine 6s and 5s which would be your As and Bs but it also had the four 4s which would be the dreded Cs and one 3 which would be your D.  The English had a dash which might even be an "F".
                His GPA with these grades would be a 2.7 which is a "C"

                Should the world have tossed aside this "C" average student?  According to you, he dosn't deserve to be considered for a job.

                German language and literature :    5
                French    "      "      "      :    3
                English   "      "      "      :    -
                Italian   "      "      "      :    5
                History                        :    6
                Geography                      :    4
                Algebra                        :    6
                Geometry                       :    6
                Descriptive geometry           :    6
                Physics                        :    6
                Chemistry                      :    5
                Natural history                :    5
                Artistic drawing               :    4
                Technical drawing              :    4

                •  Are you doing your math wrong? (0+ / 0-)

                  (5+3+5+6+4+6+6+6+6+5+5+4+4)/13 is 5.0.

                  If you map {6 5 4 3} to {A B C D}, then this would be a straight 3.0 average.

                  In any case, he clearly got top marks in math and science, so your point is moot:  he was utterly unlike the type of student we're talking about.

                  Taking jokes seriously is the exact mirror activity of laughing if someone says they have cancer. --jbou

                  by Caj on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 12:42:54 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                •  If I was hiring in STEM based on this transcript, (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Caj

                  I'd say he got a 6 in Algebra, Geometry, Descriptive Geometry, Physics, and a 5 in Chemistry and Natural History. The rest of the courses don't count, since they're not in a STEM field.

                  We shouldn't expect him to be able to do technical drawing, but aside from that he's a great candidate.

                  •  If you were the diarist, (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    i dont get it

                    You would instead say, "there's a hyphen on this page, which might be a secret code from the school meaning that you took an extra course and flunked it."

                    Also the document is folded in quarters, which might be a symbol indicating that you were expelled for huffing chalk.  Prove me wrong, amirite?

                    As the diarist said, the empty line on the transcript has to be an 'F', because why else would that line be there?  It's not like it was 1896, and they couldn't auto-generate a unique transcript form per student.

                    I will now be the second person in the diary to hypothesize that H1-Bs aren't the real reason the diarist is seeing difficulty in the IT job market.

                    Taking jokes seriously is the exact mirror activity of laughing if someone says they have cancer. --jbou

                    by Caj on Sat Apr 06, 2013 at 06:31:11 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

        •  If all the college dropouts in America ... (0+ / 0-)

          were anything like Bill Gates, this would be a completely different world. A few of these C and D students are extremely competent, and just do badly in an academic environment, but 95% of them are not people you want writing the code for your pacemaker.

      •  You can look at those statistics differently: (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:
        Caj

        Even in a recession 8/9 of CS graduates are offered a job in the IT industry (remember, 2/3 got a job, and only 1/3 of the remainder got no job offers in IT). And these statistics presumably include the C- students from third-rate colleges, as well as students who got their degrees from for-profit institutions which don't actually teach them what they need to know.

        Do 88% of Law School graduates pass the bar exam?

        I would say that on the average CS graduates are doing pretty well.

        People with PhD's in physics, on the other hand, really are having extreme difficulty finding academic jobs.  That might be a legitimate complaint.

        •  Also, how does this equal "THREE times"? (0+ / 0-)

          If a third of CS grads don't have an IT job, how does that imply that there are three times as many degrees as jobs?

          Does that statistic come from some other report?

          Taking jokes seriously is the exact mirror activity of laughing if someone says they have cancer. --jbou

          by Caj on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 04:35:36 PM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That statistic ... (1+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Caj

            comes from another report. It's also somewhat misleading. This report says that there are 12.6 million people whose highest degree is in an S&E field (and 4.6 million more with some degree in an S&E field). But there are only 4.9 million people working in what are classified as S&E jobs.

            But the report also goes on to say that there are 12.9 people with college degrees who say that their job requires expertise in S&E at a level equivalent to a bachelor's degree.

            So these statistics have clearly been cherry-picked.

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