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View Diary: Boehner: Obama is holding entitlement cuts 'hostage for more tax hikes' (353 comments)

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  •  Thanks for the work put in your answer. (7+ / 0-)

    I make it through just barely. By buying a bag of day-old bagels for $1 and freezing them.

    Multiply me by millions. Maybe tens of millions getting Social Security.

    The President has offered to make my life harder. As a bargaining chip. Based on what you know, and what he knows, is a Republican lie.

    When you're in the "hanging on by your thumbs" position, spin doesn't matter, framing doesn't matter. You can count how much money you have, and you can see how close to the bone eating, or paying the electric bill is.

    The President has just offered to cut my throat, and the same for millions of others. Nobody in my position or close to it is going to admire his political savvy.

    If his gamble goes wrong -- and he was outplayed on his oh-so-sophisticated Sequester gamble, that's why my formerly Democratic family members with the 10% income cut are furious and will not vote Democratic again -- I am hurt. Really hurt. Multiply me by millions.

    I think the outcome, electorally, whether the Republicans outplay him again or not (when he's not outplaying himself), ... I don't see how anyone can't grasp that just the offer alone will lose the Democratic Party, at the very least, 2014.

    If Republicans said every 3rd person named "Smith" should hang, we'd bargain them to every 7th. Then we'll see apologia written praising this most pragmatic compromise. There's our losing formula.

    by Jim P on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 10:04:39 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  well my husband is on SS too. (2+ / 0-)
      Recommended by:
      Jim P, HipHopAnonymous

      and yes, it sucks that it's a game. But honestly, it is. it's a problem in our political system but it is what it is. wishing it weren't so won't make it not so.

      if your friends and you decide you're too hurt and angry to vote democratic again, then the loss will be compounded. I can't tell you what to do. and this shit is real and affects real lives. I get that. and yes, you have right to be angry and outraged.

      but at the end of the day, what else? seriously. what else? there will not be any major changes to our political system any time soon. it's been this way for a long time. what are our options? yes, it sucks but what are the options?

      I;m not saying he'll win or lose and I frankly am not defending what he does or raking it over the coals. Maybe i'm too cynical about politics in general. Growing up here in DC and living here will do that to a person, perhaps.

      And if dems decide to not show up in 2014, well I guess you won't have to worry about SS cuts being part of a risk0taking political game anymore. It'll be (at best) more of the same stalwart we've had for the last 3 years of GOP house. the BEST thing you and other angry dems could do is figure out how to make this work for 2014 (which, as I said, isn't hard outside the deeply political environs like this one). At least then, if we have the house back, you have a firewall against a president who many feel is determined to dismantle the new deal.

      it's risk that these actions will work. But it's politics. politics is a risk. it sucks, but it is what it is.


      •  picking up a bit of a (1+ / 0-)
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        complacency vibe, mdmslle.

        WI is doing what Obama will not.

        by Boogalord on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 10:16:55 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  not hardly. i would call it perspective. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          side pocket

          you know I used to be around here al the time. Now i;m mostly on FB but the benefit to that is perspective. while I don't have any tea bag friends there, I do have more than a few republican friends. and lots and lots or friends who aren;t into politics at all. It's interesting to see how people are digesting and receiving news and information and events.

          All I can say is that it's not like the way it's received here. Even my political friends range a broader spectum along the liberal continuum than here.

          I love this place. Don't get me wrong. Ya'll are like my family. I feel like I know people here and I would trust most folks here with my life.

          But it's not a reflection of the populace.

          It's not complacency at all. I've been busy working on this and plan to introduce it here in fact in a few weeks and launch officially at NN13 booth! No complacency from me. Ever. Just a different perspective, a little more balance and I think a more rounded approach. I'm choosing my battles and what to expend great "outrage" on. The politics of "outrage" can be exhausting and completely unproductive. So, what if I have just spent the last two weeks ratcheded-up over "Obama's going to cut SS!". Today, I would discover all that energy all those petitions (which are really just email collection schemes) and guess what? No deal. It's a waste of my energy. And (as you can see) I've got LOTS to do and I need energy to do it. I'm not 22 anymore. So yes, I pick and choose which things I get "outraged" about. If it's something that I think isn't going to happen (like this), i pass on it. IN the case of the SS/Med thing, this has happened before with the exact same result. So I didn;t even need to be a genius prognosticator to know how this was likely to turn out.


          •  so you know this is a terrible thing to do (0+ / 0-)

            but you don't care because the Republicans aren't going to take yes for an answer, just like always, and there are better things to be outraged about?

            so, your FB friends provide invaluable perspective, but the people here are warped from actually being informed of what's happening? do you think none of us live in the real world, that it's just you? i can assure you that i, too, am a physical person who goes outside. i have yet to meet any middle-to-lower-class person who would respond to "The Dem President is proposing cuts to Medicare and SS" with "aw shucks, he's being so reasonable, that's just the game! play on!"

            i can't imagine anyone thinking that way, outside of media pundits. perhaps the perspective of your Facebook friends could enlighten us.

            •  well no, but if that's how you want to say (0+ / 0-)

              i put it I'm not going to fight with you.

              of course you are a real person. come on. All I said was that this place is not really a mirror. and if you disagree fine.

              And no i didn say I didn't care. I said I have to pick and choose. In my mind and in my opinion, this was just a game being played. I didn't say I like it or want it I said it is what it is. I didn't believe a deal would be done so I chose to not get worked up over it. Again you may not like my choice and I'm ok with that. I'm not going to fight with you.

              As it turns out if I HAd spent the last two weeks steaming about it, it would all be for naught today.

              Everyone's got their own thing and is entitled to their own reactions. Mine are mine and I was asked to explain how I felt and why and I did. I really just can't spend all day everyday being angry about the buffoonery that's happening in DC. It's exhausting and life-draining. And much of it makes not a whit of difference. By that I mean, the keystrokes and arguing back and forth on the blog ultimately have zero effect on legislation. Think of all the fighting and arguing here (that I also once took part in, too!). All the outrage. I just can't do it anymore all the time. At anytime you can look at the rec list and the diaries are all outrage and anger. I just can't do that anymore - especially not on things that, in my opinion, are not going to change.

              IMO, this whole SS debacle was nothing more than kabuki and whether I like it or not, we're right back where we were before. Only I didn't spend two weeks being "outraged". And I think I;m better off for it.

              •  your blood pressure may be better off (0+ / 0-)

                but you and your kids retirement won't be. if you can be zen about it, all the better.

                this is a historic day for Democratic Presidents. i think the outrage is especially deserved

                •  well, as I said, I have to pick and choose. (0+ / 0-)

                  I'm not zen about the SS being gone. Not at all. Don't be silly. It's that I didn't believe that any cuts would happen. I believed it was all a game. And it turns out I was right.

                  And yes, my blood pressure is better for it.

                  I do believe in fighting. And I am a fighter. And I do have the willingness and capacity to exercise outrage. But I won't squelch my energy on something that is not a threat. I never perceived this to be a threat. If you did, fine. Your outrage was rightfully placed, IMO. Perhaps the difference is that we differ in what we believe to be actual threats?

                  •  if the POTUS signals his willingness to cut (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:

                    over and over again in talks with Republicans, and the Republicans refuse but only so they can hold out for more, and this happens over and over again, yes, i think that's a threat to the safety net.

                    now that the POTUS has made it official and proposed the cuts in his budget, yes, i think that makes it even more of a threat because it's obviously something he wants to do or he wouldn't be bringing it up all the fucking time.

                    the sequester was supposed to be a game too. but it's not. it's not a game, it's people, and i for one am tired of Obama using the social safety net as a bargaining chip in his "games" with the Republicans who want only to cut his throat.

                    after so many years of this, how can you believe any good will possibly come of Obama's negotiations with Republicans? i just don't understand

                    •  did i say that? I don't believe Obama is (0+ / 0-)

                      "negotiating" with them at all. That's sort of my point. This is not a negotiation. It's like someone coming to me and offering me something I really want for something Id never do: I'll give you 100 million dollars if you stab your dad to death. No deal. Not now, not ever.

                      Look, all I said was politics, like it or not, is, at least in part, a game. It sucks that it's this way. I don't like it. I never said I did. And I didn't even say it was wrong to be angry over this stuff. You're 100% right. It's NOT a game in the sense that people's lives hang in the balance. Including my own. I never denied that.

                      What I'm saying is, I have to choose what and when to become outraged. I didn't even say I'd never be outraged about THIS ISSUE. There may come a time when I think it makes sense to do so. And when/if that happens I'll do what I can to stop it. (For the record, I'm not sure arguing the issue and expressing my Righteous Outrage here would be the solution even if I chose that NOW was the right time to do something. But that's a whole different subject).

                      I, too, am sick of the politicians playing games with our lives. I never said I wasn't. I only said that this nonsense is part of the milieu of politics. And if I spend time and energy being outraged about all the ways they dick us everyday, I'm going to 1) be exhausted and 2) be unable to actually send time and energy doing anything positive that might make a difference. I just don't have the energy to be outraged all the time, I just can't. At some point I have to make decisions about what I perceive to be something that I need to get active about and I base those decisions on how likely these thing are to happen, in my own opinion.

                      And as I said, these things are fluid. I may decide in two months or two weeks that this needs more of my attention. At which point I'll try to determine what I think is the best, most potentially productive path is toward getting what I (we) want/need. But I'll still need to make sensible decisions because the list of shit to get rightfully amped up about, is seemingly endless, unfortunately.

                      •  "it is what it is" is an empty phrase (0+ / 0-)

                        "I only said that this nonsense is part of the milieu of politics."

                        Do not forget that Obama chose to put himself in this position. you can try to blur the distribution of blame by blaming "politics" in general, but the fact remains that Obama chose to "pivot" to the deficit and accept the Republican framing of the issue. He bears responsibility for the negotiations as well, and he has chosen to offer safety net cuts time and time again.

                        i'm simply at a loss as to why you think this is nothing to be worried about. after unofficially offering cuts to the safety net repeatedly, he makes if official in the budget, and you don't think there's a chance the R's will actually take yes for an answer and hang him with it? do you think this isn't something Obama himself wants to do? what else is he spending his political capital on, besides drone strikes?

                        and yes, i've made my calls today. you can be active while still acknowledging the catfood delivery service

                        •  ok, well whatever. you can continue as you will. (0+ / 0-)

                          You keep reading things that I didn't say at all. I can't do anything about that.

                          i'm simply at a loss as to why you think this is nothing to be worried about

                          Not what i said. I said, I don't think this is going to happen. And therefore AT THIS TIME, i;m not going to get myself tied up in knots about it.

                          after unofficially offering cuts to the safety net repeatedly, he makes if official in the budget, and you don't think there's a chance the R's will actually take yes for an answer and hang him with it?

                          No. I don't. I said that 100 times. What do I base that on? Past behavior and the fact that they will never agree to "revenue increases". At any rate, I can't predict the future. So if it looks like they're going to take a break with historical behavior, it'll be time to get involved. Right now, what good is my "outrage"? It's in there. Either Boehner and the house will accept it or not. If it looks like he might, or that the votes seem to be there for it (which I don't see), then yes, time to get active. There's nothing else to be done right now. This is called: wisely choosing how to expend energy.

                          do you think this isn't something Obama himself wants to do?

                          Doesn't matter. No, really. It doesn't. If he does, then what? If he doesn't, then what? I hope not. But shit, if he wants to do it, and it looks possible, then I will fight. If he doesn't, then he's got some other reason for whatever he's doing. Again, there's no practical use in trying to read tea leaves. It's exhausting and pointless anyway. I called, you called. Many called. He did it anyway. OK. Do I like it? No, but it's in there and we did what we could. Now we wait until there's something else that can be done. This is called: wisely choosing how to expend energy.

                          what else is he spending his political capital on, besides drone strikes?
                          I won't even bother with this know...wisely choosing....and all.
                          •  Observing Obama's consistent offering of cuts (0+ / 0-)

                            throughout all of the negotiations including his recent inclusion of them in the official budget, and concluding that he is willing and eager to sacrifice the safety net for the goodwill of the Republicans is not "reading tea leaves". it's mostly just "reading". i'm not just pulling this out of my ass, there is some context and history to back it up.

                            it "doesn't matter" if Obama actually wants the cuts or not? i guess if i can't use the word "zen" i'm gonna have to go with "complacent" again.

                          •  Ok so it's what he wants to do. (0+ / 0-)

                            Now what?

                          •  let your congresspeople know they lose your vote (0+ / 0-)

                            if they support the budget

                          •  Done already. Now what? Spend two (0+ / 0-)

                            Weeks stewing about the budget and rending my garments because Obama put it in and Boehner rejected it? (Which he now has)?

                            Spend time arguing over whether its strategy or evil intent? Spend weeks feeling "betrayed" and threatening the party on a blog?

                          •  only reason i replied in the first place (0+ / 0-)

                            was because because of your condescending response to Jim P.

                            you're the one who accused anyone of actually believing the Republicans might actually take this deal of being gullible. i'm just the guy with the relatively easy task of pointing out Obama's eagerness to cut the safety net is very real, considering he's putting it in the fucking official budget.

                            Obama's negotiations with the R's are indefensible, and they're going to end with cutting the safety net. if you don't believe that, it sure as hell isn't me who is the gullible one.

                          •  he's not offering the cuts to the R's (0+ / 0-)

                            so they can refuse them. how anyone can still believe this is beyond me

                          •  I'm just glad I didn't spend the (0+ / 0-)

                            Last three weeks being outraged. I sent a couple emails. And here we are.

                          •  Well I do think its gullible, but that's my (0+ / 0-)

                            Opinion. Same as the GOP who keeps walking into this nonsense too.

                            And I gave my reasons. I don't think it will happen, and I gave my reasons. And right on cue Boehner rejected it.

                            Good. On to the next battle.

                •  That isn't zen. (1+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:

                  Please do not make thoughtless comments about other people's religion. I know that misuse of Zen is part of our popular culture, just as calling satisfaction of material desires is called Heavenly in despite of Judaism, Christianity, and other religions. We can't stop all of it, but we can take responsibility for our own part in it.

                  There is a Zen practice that involves complete withdrawal from the affairs and cares of the world, but it is undertaken to help those still stuck in them. It still includes Right Speech, Right Action, and Right Livelihood along with the rest of the Eightfold Path.

                  My Zen is to work on world poverty and its various attendant ills via the One Laptop Per Child program and its many partners, and to understand the nature of delusion in general, and particularly political delusion, so as to help counter it.

                  I consider offering up Chained CPI to the God of Mindless Bipartisanship to be a serious delusion, though by no means the worst. With so many to choose from, how do we strategize which to direct our efforts to? I have no quarrel with those who pick one issue over the others, and work hard on it. We need people committed to working on each of them.

                  I have my own notions of what will do us the most good on the most issues as quickly as possible, which I am pleased to be able to discuss here. For example,

                  Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

                  by Mokurai on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 11:58:30 AM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

      •  The game is horribly played by Obama, then. (1+ / 0-)
        Recommended by:

        Again, the game of "let Republicans insist that the safety-net be cut in the face of 2/3s (4/5s in some polls) public opposition" and the game of "Offer massive Job Stimulus which 3/4s want" would be the smart one, neh?

        Dress it in any rationale available, he really sucks at governing.

        I'm sorry, but the President plays the game the Filthy Rich wants to play, over and over and over. The game the American people want? Outside of a couple of social issues, nope.

        If Republicans said every 3rd person named "Smith" should hang, we'd bargain them to every 7th. Then we'll see apologia written praising this most pragmatic compromise. There's our losing formula.

        by Jim P on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 10:28:24 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  ok. i respect your right to your opinion. nt (0+ / 0-)
          •  But you'll not say he's playing the game well, (0+ / 0-)

            or even the right game, I hope.

            If Republicans said every 3rd person named "Smith" should hang, we'd bargain them to every 7th. Then we'll see apologia written praising this most pragmatic compromise. There's our losing formula.

            by Jim P on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 11:28:00 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  It is what it is, JimP. When you play a game (0+ / 0-)

              sometime you win. And sometime you don't.

              The funny thing is if you play and win, you look like a genius. If you lose, you look like an ass.

              I'm not getting into the sux/rox drama. Never have, never will. As much of an aversion as I have to Outrage Politics, I have zero tolerance for that sort of internet drama.

              So I guess if it comes out OK, the answer will be he played it well. If not, he played the wrong game or played it poorly.

              Either way, you're right, our lives are in the balance. I don't see how to change that. I may not like it but being Outraged here on DKos and being "through" with the party and/or Obama or whatever...isn't going to change that. I find that whole string tiresome.

            •  I believe in action. Now, I'll say this: (0+ / 0-)

              I;ve sent a couple of emails to the WH on this issue. Haven't made a phone call yet. But I will, if I think it looks like I need to. Hell, I'm a co-admin of a 2500 member FB group - all of whom are ready to work our asses of for 2014 house. We've actually done some phone calls (not on this issue) using I would have no problem calling up that action again on my FB group.

              But all the anger and outrage and rending of garments and threats about 2014 elections and discussions about being "done" and "removing myself from OFA emails" - god, really?! really? It looks crazy, especially to me who hasn't been around as much as I used to. It just honestly looks crazy.

              Would it be great if every person who wrote or tipped an outrage diary and threatened not to vote in 2014 would DO SOMETHING productive on the issue? I know we all have a need to vent from time to time, but the shelf-life of it here is way too long and actually I think distracts people who SHOULD eb active from actually BEING active. It's fun to be pissed and complain and find camaraderie in angst. Its not so fun or organzine a phonebank.

              •  no (0+ / 0-)

                your opening statement in this thread was an assertion that DKOs users are out of touch with the world outside the blogosphere, implying that there are lots of working class voters who are pleased by the POTUS's proposal for safety net cuts. that statement was absurd on its face and was called out as such.

                now that it's obvious how indefensible this latest action from Obama is, you make noises about how you're the one who is dedicated to action while implying the rest of us are being unproductive with our outrage while the adults try to get things done. it is a typical fallback position on this website. also you seem to believe laws and budgets are not worth being worried about or taken as threats until after they are already passed, because that's worked so well in the past.

                i hope you're not planning on organizing a phonebank for any Dems who vote for this budget

      •  In fact, there are major shifts happening in our (0+ / 0-)

        political system, and now is not the time to give up. As I said above, the Southern Strategy is over (apart from the deadenders still needing to be replaced), and the Republicans are in national decline at an average rate of 1% of the population annually. Once we deal with the filibuster and the gerrymander, which we know how to do, we can get down to debating the differences between a Democratic and a Progressive agenda. DKos can shift its mission from Better and More Democrats to Better and More Progressives.

        For a time. Until the rich figure out some other set of wedge issues. It took decades after the implosion of the Federalists, and decades for the rich to ally themselves with the racists after the defeat of the Confederacy.

        Ceterem censeo, gerrymandra delenda est

        by Mokurai on Fri Apr 05, 2013 at 11:45:13 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

    •  I don't get it (0+ / 0-)

      why are your relatives mad at Obama for the sequester?

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