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View Diary: 15-Year Old Rape/Abuse Victim Sentenced, Under Sharia Law, To Public Lashing For 'Fornication' (94 comments)

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  •  You need to get out more. (3+ / 0-)
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    Leslie Salzillo, srelar, Be Skeptical

    Sharia law is disgusting. They stone women for nothing. That's not cannabis, thats real rocks thrown really hard at her head until she is really dead. There is no christian anywhere doing that, and your false equivalence there is worse than silly.

    Under sharia law, I am not allowed to live. Read that again - in most muslim countries gays are put to death! Are you going to defend that? Sharia is bigotry, misogyny, and a whole host of just extreme brutality - death for drugs, amputation for shoplifting...

    You have crawled in bed with the most monstrous of all ideologies; to the point that you are defending sharia law on the internet. Sharia law is death for gays. I suppose we should just be happy that they don't kill us here, right?

    The fact that you actually researched this and still hold your bizarre opinion that sharia law is no different than biblical law... dude. Maybe you should stay in.

    I'm afraid that my signature won't match the mood of my comment.

    by heybuddy on Tue Apr 09, 2013 at 06:40:51 AM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  Glad we have a common enemy. And no common ground. (0+ / 0-)

      This for heybuddy: "Sharia law" is one of the scare concepts the Right uses to get us, gay, straight, pedophile or whatever, to lose our critical thinking. Bad people find religious justification for all kinds of bad things, and yes, the Sharia traditions were shaped by a particularly bad set of old men and have a lot of horror and cruelty in their "tradition." These were/are old men who understand a lot about hypocrisy. So we share the planet with the people in several places, including Afghanistan, who do this:

      along with the stoning and flogging and you forgot to mention "honor killings," and there's a reason for that snarky line in the movie "Airport!," where the airline captain asks the little boy if he's ever been inside a Turkish prison.

      Why let people who cynically conflate pieces of behavior under an umbrella category (like "liberal," or "socialist," or "Sharia law"), to manipulate and confuse and build political power out of tribal feelings and identities, get away with it?

      There's hypocrisy everywhere. And gay people, with varying degrees of visibility, everywhere too. Get wound up about me all you want, but the problem is the old men who cynically use various "laws" to control the rest of us. As clubs, or as bugbears.

      "Is that all there is?" Peggy Lee.

      by jm214 on Tue Apr 09, 2013 at 09:35:03 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  While you're right of course that Christianity and (2+ / 0-)
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        Be Skeptical, Leslie Salzillo

        Islam share a barbaric and patriarchal beginning... the comparison ends there.

        Christians can be bigoted, but their bigotry is generally limited to marriage inequality and nasty comments. To compare them to muslims is absolutely insane.

        Show me one case where a Christian man had his daughter gang raped and killed, and Christians circled the wagons around him. To compare the two religions is not just unfair, its ridiculous.

        Christianity isn't perfect, but your false equivalence makes fools out of all of us on the left. You do realize that this conversation would get us killed under sharia, right? You're not "open minded" to pretend that the two religions are equal. And you're certainly not pro-woman or pro-gay rights if you pretend that their barbarity is no worse than the mere ongoing moral argument that we are having here. We are not just miles away from them, we are galaxies apart. Go tell the women and the gays in a sharia country that their situation is no worse than mine, and that I'm just using "scare words" to make them "lose" their critical thinking. Somebody here is not thinking, and it isn't them.

        Consistency is important if you want your ideas respected.  When you say sharia isn't any worse than Christianity, which is what you are saying, you relinquish your moral authority. Perhaps you don't realize that we can hate sharia and not hate muslims, just like we can hate the christian view of marriage without hating christians. But trust me, sharia law is a bad, bad thing, and doesn't remotely compare with us struggling here to get married and a little respect.

        Sharia law supporters should not find any shelter here on the left, even though they often seem to, and that's the focus of my ire here. I hope that my message comes through all of that.  

        I'm afraid that my signature won't match the mood of my comment.

        by heybuddy on Tue Apr 09, 2013 at 10:34:56 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  I think you may be confusing two things here. (0+ / 0-)

          There is sharia law, which is laid down by the Koran and subject to interpretation by any religious authority.  And then there is sharia law as it is currently practiced in many (most?) Muslim theocracies.

          The latter is what you're talking about.  And the latter is pretty terrible -- but if you want to compare that to Christianity, you can only justly compare it to Christian theocracies, not to Christians living in the US.

          To the extent that we are protected from abuses under Christianity here, it is not because Christianity is a morally superior religion -- it's because here and now it has a hell of a lot less power.  And power, as we all know, corrupts.

          •  Um, do you think sharia law is different in (1+ / 0-)
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            Be Skeptical

            the koran than it is practiced in muslim states now? You got it exactly backwards. The book says to be really strict, but Saudi is now allowing women to drive. The reality of current sharia enforcement is thankfully a lot more moderate than the koran instructs, but it is still positively monstrous. They don't always amputate thieves like they're supposed to, and some countries even have honor killing listed as a misdemeanor, but, really, are you going to argue that the countries are misreading it and putting up more extreme laws than in the book?

            And one last time, Judeo-Christian ethics were never anything close to the barbarity of sharia. At no point in Christian history was it okay to gang rape a female relative, no matter what she did. Sharia law still allows slavery. Even now, the only place where slavery is legal is under sharia law.

            Again, for far too long, sharia law proponents have found shelter with us, and you are not helping with your false equivalence.

            I'm afraid that my signature won't match the mood of my comment.

            by heybuddy on Tue Apr 09, 2013 at 12:31:13 PM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  Have you got a source in the Koran (1+ / 0-)
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              for the gang-rape punishment for female relatives?  Is that actually a set-down part of the religion, or is it just a thing that people can get away with because their anger is considered justified and nobody is going to stop them or charge them afterwards?

              As for historical barbarity in Christian ethics, I would like to draw your attention to the Inquisition.

              •  You direct us to an historical barbarity (1+ / 0-)
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                that has essentially been defunct for several hundred years.  That's all you've got?

                •  I could talk about the Crusades (0+ / 0-)

                  and the witch-burnings and the blood libels, if you like ...

                  But essentially yes, all the things I could talk about are long since defunct.  I'm inclined to believe that this is heavily, if not entirely, because there are no current Christian theocracies.

              •  I want you to look in the mirror and say what you (0+ / 0-)

                just wrote.

                "Just a thing that people can get away with because..." their society considers it justified, and nobody is going to stop them?

                I paraphrased the second part, but, you just made my point in the most chilling way possible. You're absolutely right. Nobody stops them. There is no one in a sharia law society that finds the gang rape of a female child abominable. They get their "honor" back when they do that, and their friends show no disgust about it. And that compares to a christian society how?

                As for the place in the Koran that says to gang rape daughters, I don't have it, but I'm willing to retract that part of my comment if its worth anything.

                But seriously, yuck.

                I'm afraid that my signature won't match the mood of my comment.

                by heybuddy on Tue Apr 09, 2013 at 03:19:07 PM PDT

                [ Parent ]

                •  This is the point I'm trying to make. (0+ / 0-)

                  You're conflating the society with the religion.

                  The society is pretty damn horrible.  I am in complete agreement with you on that.  But I don't believe the religion is the cause of it; I believe it's being used as a justification and an excuse for vileness.  Which is something that any religion, or any non-religious ideology of sufficient power, can be used for -- especially in a context such as a theocracy, where any dissenting opinion is treated as both a sin and a crime.

                  •  Christian "theocracies" ended slavery. (0+ / 0-)

                    Not just ended it, but fought many nations and lost many men to end it across the globe. The only place where slavery still exists is in muslim nations.

                    You need to learn some history from an objective source. Christians ended thought control and allowed dissent 600 years ago. It's called the renaissance,

                    Witch trials were a month long insanity suffered by one town, and it actually horrified the Church when they found out.  

                    And about the crusades, the 800 year old example you're touting... Ever wonder why it was so important for Christians to mobilize and stop the advance of Islam? Maybe Islam was a barbaric culture that was conquering Europe and Asia and Africa by the sword... And that the crusades prevented us from living a modern day sharia nightmare?

                    I have to ask, does defending sharia make you feel like you are open-minded and enlightened? I realize it was pretty trendy for a while, but seriously, what do you get out of pretending that those jerks are not any different than our local church elders? Have you ever met a young muslim woman? I dare you to tell her that you defend her oppression on the grounds that it's not the religion, but just a couple of jerks who are misunderstanding islam or using it as an excuse.

                    One last thought: If you think the majority of muslims "misunderstand" islam... perhaps it is you who is not understanding islam, and not them.

                    I'm afraid that my signature won't match the mood of my comment.

                    by heybuddy on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 05:27:16 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  Your grasp of history is extremely shaky. (1+ / 0-)
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                      The "month-long insanity suffered by one town" was the Salem witch trials.  Witch-burnings are considerably older than that:

                      The classical period of witchhunts in Europe and North America falls into the Early Modern period or about 1480 to 1750, spanning the upheavals of the Reformation and the Thirty Years' War, resulting in an estimated 40,000 to 60,000 executions--not including a million Cathars who were declared to be witches.
                      Slavery and slave labor are currently practiced in China, North Korea, Haiti, Brazil, parts of India, and the Republic of Congo.  None of those are Muslim countries; the Republic of Congo is over 50% Catholic, Brazil is about 65%, and Haiti is closer to 80%.

                      As to the Crusades, we may be talking at cross purposes there.  I learned about the Crusades primarily from the point of view of how it affected my ancestors, who were a hell of a lot better off under the Muslims than under the Christians -- who may have been interested in stopping the spread of Islam, but didn't mind butchering Jews along the way.  Would you care to tell me what modern-day nightmares were prevented by those massacres?

                      I have in fact met a handful of young Muslim women, in college in New York; I learned a good deal from them, and vice versa.  That, as it happens, would be when and how I stopped thinking Islam was an inherently barbaric religion.

                      •  That's fair. (2+ / 0-)
                        Recommended by:
                        Batya the Toon, Leslie Salzillo

                        I can't argue with most of that. I thought you were referring only to Salem, but yes, it was more widespread in fact. Point yours.

                        Slavery is, sadly, also your point. It too is far more widespread, and it includes christians.  

                        The crusades, indeed, a mixed bag. The world would be terrible if Islam had conquered all, but for that gift we endured many other horrors, and well, its a mixed bag. I would strenuously argue though that Islam does not serve it's population well in terms of education and technology... that the world would look very different if they had won... but we could do a whole season on that topic. I'll back away from it;)

                        I guess my thing is this - A lot of women live under extreme oppression in Islam. And I never understood why western feminism doesn't try to help them more. And outside of the gay community, there is almost no discussion of their treatment of gays. While I may do battle with the Christian church here at home - (my whole family is church -goers and I still go sometimes.) We may have our disagreements, but the comparison of sharia law and christian beliefs are so night and day that it a: gives cover to sharia law proponents, and b: Is so ridiculous to christians who hear us comparing these two things that they we are think we are loony-toons. And that is not helpful, I think, to the really oppressed over there or the pretty oppressed over here.

                        I'm sorry that I ran my mouth with some "facts" that I thought I knew. I am humbled. If I may be so bold, it illustrates my point that an honest approach is crucial to winning converts. Both systems need improvement, but one just does not compare to the other.


                        I'm afraid that my signature won't match the mood of my comment.

                        by heybuddy on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 08:42:40 AM PDT

                        [ Parent ]

                        •  An honest approach is definitely crucial (1+ / 0-)
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                          and I think we can shake hands and agree on that point, absolutely.

                          As to this:

                          I guess my thing is this - A lot of women live under extreme oppression in Islam. And I never understood why western feminism doesn't try to help them more. And outside of the gay community, there is almost no discussion of their treatment of gays.
                          I'm with you on those too, I think.  And yeah, a lot of us are working so hard to not be racist and ethnocentric that it can get in the way of recognizing when aspects of other cultures really are terrible.  And I wish like hell that we could do more to help the people suffering under this oppression.

                          But I've seen something of American Islam and its own version of sharia, and from what I've seen it really does differ from sharia as practiced in Islamic theocracies about as sharply as contemporary American Christianity differs from Inquisition-era Christianity (and, for that matter, as contemporary American Judaism differs from Biblical Judaism, under which idolaters could be killed without process of law and their killers would not be considered murderers).

                          I think a big part of how fanatical religions become milder and more open-minded is through exposure to others who don't share the same worldview, under circumstances where neither can threaten the other's safety.  When you see how others live, you start to get the idea that maybe your own way of life isn't the only possible good way; that hey, maybe civilization doesn't collapse if not everybody keeps the same restday, or if women leave their homes and hold jobs, or if men smooch other men.  And when that happens, religious practice and religious philosophy change -- slowly, and not universally, but they do change.  Three hundred years ago it was unthinkable among devout Jews to teach their daughters to study Bible; today it's unthinkable not to.  One hundred years ago it was unthinkable that any Christian church of any denomination would marry two men or two women; today it's happening.

                          And I think that's the best reason for the comparison, however ridiculous it may seem:  to demonstrate that if we've changed, so can they.

                        •  No offense... (0+ / 0-)
                          And I never understood why western feminism doesn't try to help them more.
                          ...but most Muslim women have no interest in being subjected to "white women's burden." The recent counter-protest to the Femen protest, as reported by Al-Jazeera, gives some recent proof to that.  To be honest, a lot of Muslim women (and men) don't want to be lectured by people whom Muslims see as being oppressed themselves, who show themselves to be deeply lacking in moral behavior.  

                          Muslims and tigers and bears, oh my!

                          by JDsg on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 05:17:27 PM PDT

                          [ Parent ]

                          •  But it is offensive (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            deeply offensive

                            a lot of Muslim women (and men) don't want to be lectured by people...who show themselves to be deeply lacking in moral behavior.
                            and just silly
                            ...whom Muslims see as being oppressed themselves...
                            Sounds like what the people of North Korea say about everyone else.
                          •  Well, no offense to everyone else. (0+ / 0-)

                            In your case, I'll make an exception.  Derp.

                            Muslims and tigers and bears, oh my!

                            by JDsg on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 03:19:02 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Someday the magnitude of your cognitive dissonance (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:

                            will cause your head to supernova.

                          •  @_@ (0+ / 0-)
                            And when they hear vain talk, they turn away therefrom and say: "To us our deeds, and to you yours; peace be to you: we seek not the ignorant."  (28:55)

                            Muslims and tigers and bears, oh my!

                            by JDsg on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 04:45:06 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  we seek not the ignorant (0+ / 0-)

                            Amen to that.  See ya........

                          •  Wow. (0+ / 0-)

                            A lot of muslim women, huh.

                            And can other people see these friends of yours?

                            I'm afraid that my signature won't match the mood of my comment.

                            by heybuddy on Fri Apr 12, 2013 at 11:38:29 AM PDT

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                          •  Wow, indeed! (0+ / 0-)

                            Do you always slip into Orientalist fantasy mode, or are you just playing the fool? What do you think, that Muslim men lock their women away in harems or that all Muslim women are niqabis or wear burqas?  The mind boggles. @_@

                            You know, if you treated the other people whom you converse with with a little more respect, you might not have to have your ass handed to you, such as Batya (whom I respect) had to do the other day.

                            Muslims and tigers and bears, oh my!

                            by JDsg on Fri Apr 12, 2013 at 07:55:49 PM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  We are talking about living under sharia law here. (1+ / 0-)
                            Recommended by:
                            Be Skeptical

                            I know there are moderate muslims, and I'm not referring to them. We are talking about women in sharia. If women who live under sharia complain about sharia... they are executed for blasphemy.

                            And here you are telling us that they like it under sharia. I realize that you are not going to agree with me, and I frankly have no idea what an orientalist fantasy mode might be, but your position, in itself, is absurd.

                            It's like asking a hostage if they like their hostage taker while they still have a gun to their head. And then when the hostage says, "no, I like this!" You say "see? she likes it! you're a hater!"

                            I don't have much respect for slave masters and their apologists, I'm sorry, I'm guess I'm just not as open-minded as you.

                            I'm afraid that my signature won't match the mood of my comment.

                            by heybuddy on Sat Apr 13, 2013 at 04:43:10 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  It's obvious that your conception of... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...shari'ah is woefully inadequate, to the point of, shall we say, absurdity.  All Muslims everywhere in the world live to some degree or another under shari'ah. Even in the country where I currently reside, shari'ah has been formally adopted into the secular legal system, especially with respect to issues involving women and families, including marriages, divorce and inheritance.  My own marriage was conducted under the shari'ah law system here.  Muslims of both genders, if need be, may go to hear their legal matters adjudicated under the shari'ah courts, which are part of the country's court system, and have been for over 50 years now.

                            Women who may complain about shari'ah are not executed for blasphemy.  They're not executed at all.  That is one of your Orientalist fantasies, as is your notion that Muslim men are somehow "slave masters." I mean, really, are you as ignorant as you paint yourself to be?

                            Muslims and tigers and bears, oh my!

                            by JDsg on Sat Apr 13, 2013 at 08:30:21 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

                          •  Perhaps this blog post I wrote... (0+ / 0-)

                            ...several years ago might help to alleviate some of your confusion over what shari'ah is and isn't.  It touches on the subject at hand only indirectly and is extremely short (most writing on shari'ah and fiqh extends to volumes of books in order to do the subject justice), but it might help you to have the faintest idea of what you're trying to talk about:  On Shari'ah and American Politics

                            Muslims and tigers and bears, oh my!

                            by JDsg on Sat Apr 13, 2013 at 09:55:47 AM PDT

                            [ Parent ]

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