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View Diary: 15-Year Old Rape/Abuse Victim Sentenced, Under Sharia Law, To Public Lashing For 'Fornication' (94 comments)

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  •  I want you to look in the mirror and say what you (0+ / 0-)

    just wrote.

    "Just a thing that people can get away with because..." their society considers it justified, and nobody is going to stop them?

    I paraphrased the second part, but, you just made my point in the most chilling way possible. You're absolutely right. Nobody stops them. There is no one in a sharia law society that finds the gang rape of a female child abominable. They get their "honor" back when they do that, and their friends show no disgust about it. And that compares to a christian society how?

    As for the place in the Koran that says to gang rape daughters, I don't have it, but I'm willing to retract that part of my comment if its worth anything.

    But seriously, yuck.

    I'm afraid that my signature won't match the mood of my comment.

    by heybuddy on Tue Apr 09, 2013 at 03:19:07 PM PDT

    [ Parent ]

    •  This is the point I'm trying to make. (0+ / 0-)

      You're conflating the society with the religion.

      The society is pretty damn horrible.  I am in complete agreement with you on that.  But I don't believe the religion is the cause of it; I believe it's being used as a justification and an excuse for vileness.  Which is something that any religion, or any non-religious ideology of sufficient power, can be used for -- especially in a context such as a theocracy, where any dissenting opinion is treated as both a sin and a crime.

      •  Christian "theocracies" ended slavery. (0+ / 0-)

        Not just ended it, but fought many nations and lost many men to end it across the globe. The only place where slavery still exists is in muslim nations.

        You need to learn some history from an objective source. Christians ended thought control and allowed dissent 600 years ago. It's called the renaissance,

        Witch trials were a month long insanity suffered by one town, and it actually horrified the Church when they found out.  

        And about the crusades, the 800 year old example you're touting... Ever wonder why it was so important for Christians to mobilize and stop the advance of Islam? Maybe Islam was a barbaric culture that was conquering Europe and Asia and Africa by the sword... And that the crusades prevented us from living a modern day sharia nightmare?

        I have to ask, does defending sharia make you feel like you are open-minded and enlightened? I realize it was pretty trendy for a while, but seriously, what do you get out of pretending that those jerks are not any different than our local church elders? Have you ever met a young muslim woman? I dare you to tell her that you defend her oppression on the grounds that it's not the religion, but just a couple of jerks who are misunderstanding islam or using it as an excuse.

        One last thought: If you think the majority of muslims "misunderstand" islam... perhaps it is you who is not understanding islam, and not them.

        I'm afraid that my signature won't match the mood of my comment.

        by heybuddy on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 05:27:16 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  Your grasp of history is extremely shaky. (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          JDsg

          The "month-long insanity suffered by one town" was the Salem witch trials.  Witch-burnings are considerably older than that:

          The classical period of witchhunts in Europe and North America falls into the Early Modern period or about 1480 to 1750, spanning the upheavals of the Reformation and the Thirty Years' War, resulting in an estimated 40,000 to 60,000 executions--not including a million Cathars who were declared to be witches.
          Slavery and slave labor are currently practiced in China, North Korea, Haiti, Brazil, parts of India, and the Republic of Congo.  None of those are Muslim countries; the Republic of Congo is over 50% Catholic, Brazil is about 65%, and Haiti is closer to 80%.

          As to the Crusades, we may be talking at cross purposes there.  I learned about the Crusades primarily from the point of view of how it affected my ancestors, who were a hell of a lot better off under the Muslims than under the Christians -- who may have been interested in stopping the spread of Islam, but didn't mind butchering Jews along the way.  Would you care to tell me what modern-day nightmares were prevented by those massacres?

          I have in fact met a handful of young Muslim women, in college in New York; I learned a good deal from them, and vice versa.  That, as it happens, would be when and how I stopped thinking Islam was an inherently barbaric religion.

          •  That's fair. (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            Batya the Toon, Leslie Salzillo

            I can't argue with most of that. I thought you were referring only to Salem, but yes, it was more widespread in fact. Point yours.

            Slavery is, sadly, also your point. It too is far more widespread, and it includes christians.  

            The crusades, indeed, a mixed bag. The world would be terrible if Islam had conquered all, but for that gift we endured many other horrors, and well, its a mixed bag. I would strenuously argue though that Islam does not serve it's population well in terms of education and technology... that the world would look very different if they had won... but we could do a whole season on that topic. I'll back away from it;)

            I guess my thing is this - A lot of women live under extreme oppression in Islam. And I never understood why western feminism doesn't try to help them more. And outside of the gay community, there is almost no discussion of their treatment of gays. While I may do battle with the Christian church here at home - (my whole family is church -goers and I still go sometimes.) We may have our disagreements, but the comparison of sharia law and christian beliefs are so night and day that it a: gives cover to sharia law proponents, and b: Is so ridiculous to christians who hear us comparing these two things that they we are think we are loony-toons. And that is not helpful, I think, to the really oppressed over there or the pretty oppressed over here.

            I'm sorry that I ran my mouth with some "facts" that I thought I knew. I am humbled. If I may be so bold, it illustrates my point that an honest approach is crucial to winning converts. Both systems need improvement, but one just does not compare to the other.

             

            I'm afraid that my signature won't match the mood of my comment.

            by heybuddy on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 08:42:40 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

            •  An honest approach is definitely crucial (1+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              heybuddy

              and I think we can shake hands and agree on that point, absolutely.

              As to this:

              I guess my thing is this - A lot of women live under extreme oppression in Islam. And I never understood why western feminism doesn't try to help them more. And outside of the gay community, there is almost no discussion of their treatment of gays.
              I'm with you on those too, I think.  And yeah, a lot of us are working so hard to not be racist and ethnocentric that it can get in the way of recognizing when aspects of other cultures really are terrible.  And I wish like hell that we could do more to help the people suffering under this oppression.

              But I've seen something of American Islam and its own version of sharia, and from what I've seen it really does differ from sharia as practiced in Islamic theocracies about as sharply as contemporary American Christianity differs from Inquisition-era Christianity (and, for that matter, as contemporary American Judaism differs from Biblical Judaism, under which idolaters could be killed without process of law and their killers would not be considered murderers).

              I think a big part of how fanatical religions become milder and more open-minded is through exposure to others who don't share the same worldview, under circumstances where neither can threaten the other's safety.  When you see how others live, you start to get the idea that maybe your own way of life isn't the only possible good way; that hey, maybe civilization doesn't collapse if not everybody keeps the same restday, or if women leave their homes and hold jobs, or if men smooch other men.  And when that happens, religious practice and religious philosophy change -- slowly, and not universally, but they do change.  Three hundred years ago it was unthinkable among devout Jews to teach their daughters to study Bible; today it's unthinkable not to.  One hundred years ago it was unthinkable that any Christian church of any denomination would marry two men or two women; today it's happening.

              And I think that's the best reason for the comparison, however ridiculous it may seem:  to demonstrate that if we've changed, so can they.

            •  No offense... (0+ / 0-)
              And I never understood why western feminism doesn't try to help them more.
              ...but most Muslim women have no interest in being subjected to "white women's burden." The recent counter-protest to the Femen protest, as reported by Al-Jazeera, gives some recent proof to that.  To be honest, a lot of Muslim women (and men) don't want to be lectured by people whom Muslims see as being oppressed themselves, who show themselves to be deeply lacking in moral behavior.  

              Muslims and tigers and bears, oh my!

              by JDsg on Wed Apr 10, 2013 at 05:17:27 PM PDT

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              •  But it is offensive (1+ / 0-)
                Recommended by:
                heybuddy

                deeply offensive

                a lot of Muslim women (and men) don't want to be lectured by people...who show themselves to be deeply lacking in moral behavior.
                and just silly
                ...whom Muslims see as being oppressed themselves...
                Sounds like what the people of North Korea say about everyone else.
              •  Wow. (0+ / 0-)

                A lot of muslim women, huh.

                And can other people see these friends of yours?

                I'm afraid that my signature won't match the mood of my comment.

                by heybuddy on Fri Apr 12, 2013 at 11:38:29 AM PDT

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                •  Wow, indeed! (0+ / 0-)

                  Do you always slip into Orientalist fantasy mode, or are you just playing the fool? What do you think, that Muslim men lock their women away in harems or that all Muslim women are niqabis or wear burqas?  The mind boggles. @_@

                  You know, if you treated the other people whom you converse with with a little more respect, you might not have to have your ass handed to you, such as Batya (whom I respect) had to do the other day.

                  Muslims and tigers and bears, oh my!

                  by JDsg on Fri Apr 12, 2013 at 07:55:49 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  We are talking about living under sharia law here. (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    Be Skeptical

                    I know there are moderate muslims, and I'm not referring to them. We are talking about women in sharia. If women who live under sharia complain about sharia... they are executed for blasphemy.

                    And here you are telling us that they like it under sharia. I realize that you are not going to agree with me, and I frankly have no idea what an orientalist fantasy mode might be, but your position, in itself, is absurd.

                    It's like asking a hostage if they like their hostage taker while they still have a gun to their head. And then when the hostage says, "no, I like this!" You say "see? she likes it! you're a hater!"

                    I don't have much respect for slave masters and their apologists, I'm sorry, I'm guess I'm just not as open-minded as you.

                    I'm afraid that my signature won't match the mood of my comment.

                    by heybuddy on Sat Apr 13, 2013 at 04:43:10 AM PDT

                    [ Parent ]

                    •  It's obvious that your conception of... (0+ / 0-)

                      ...shari'ah is woefully inadequate, to the point of, shall we say, absurdity.  All Muslims everywhere in the world live to some degree or another under shari'ah. Even in the country where I currently reside, shari'ah has been formally adopted into the secular legal system, especially with respect to issues involving women and families, including marriages, divorce and inheritance.  My own marriage was conducted under the shari'ah law system here.  Muslims of both genders, if need be, may go to hear their legal matters adjudicated under the shari'ah courts, which are part of the country's court system, and have been for over 50 years now.

                      Women who may complain about shari'ah are not executed for blasphemy.  They're not executed at all.  That is one of your Orientalist fantasies, as is your notion that Muslim men are somehow "slave masters." I mean, really, are you as ignorant as you paint yourself to be?

                      Muslims and tigers and bears, oh my!

                      by JDsg on Sat Apr 13, 2013 at 08:30:21 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                    •  Perhaps this blog post I wrote... (0+ / 0-)

                      ...several years ago might help to alleviate some of your confusion over what shari'ah is and isn't.  It touches on the subject at hand only indirectly and is extremely short (most writing on shari'ah and fiqh extends to volumes of books in order to do the subject justice), but it might help you to have the faintest idea of what you're trying to talk about:  On Shari'ah and American Politics

                      Muslims and tigers and bears, oh my!

                      by JDsg on Sat Apr 13, 2013 at 09:55:47 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

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