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View Diary: RKBA: Firearm legislation, a LEO survey (411 comments)

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  •  This column in the Boston Globe gives (15+ / 0-)

    food for thought.
     The toughest gun laws in the Country did not, evidently,  do what was assumed they would.
    http://www.bostonglobe.com/...

    "The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced." -Zappa My Site

    by meagert on Tue Apr 09, 2013 at 08:41:36 AM PDT

    •  Similar effect in Chicago (3+ / 0-)

      Gun purchase restrictions would need to be enacted uniformly across regions, as a single area can't stop the flood of contraband weapons into their area if they are available literally outside city/county/state borders.

      "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

      by wader on Tue Apr 09, 2013 at 09:04:04 AM PDT

      [ Parent ]

      •  Saying that the problem with criminal use of guns (10+ / 0-)

        in places like Chicago must be due to lax laws elsewhere is nothing more than failure to accept the idea that gun control doesn't achieve the desired goal.  This form of rationalizing isn't constrained to guns and has impacted public policy in different ways.  

        •  There is no manner of logic I can see which (2+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          jeff in nyc, oldpotsmuggler

          takes you from what I stated to your conclusion.

          Willful loss of context to make an argument is called obfuscation - perhaps avoid imitating Republican tactics and then we'll have something to talk about.

          BTW, crime rose in many places due to conditions having little to do with guns, but gun-related fatalities in Mass were quite low for the same timeframe that the (conservative) author cited.  Again, context matters.

          "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

          by wader on Tue Apr 09, 2013 at 09:57:52 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

        •  The regional case falls apart for nations. (9+ / 0-)

          There exist nations with stricter firearm laws than the US and higher rates of violent crime with firearms.

          There exist nations with less strict firearms laws than the US with lower rates of violent crimes with firearms.

          There are increases in violent crimes observed when firearm laws are made more strict (regionally and nationally).

          There is a trend for more firearms per capita and less strict firearm laws in the US while the violent crime rate and violent crime rate with firearms has decreased.

          The only evidence that exists for the claim that more firearms and more firearm availability is correlated with more violent crime or more violent firearm crime can only be made when one disregards contrary evidence.   Thus such claims are not born out of a measured scientific approach to the data but of one where the individual in question feels the need to have their opinion appear valid.

        •  No it isn't (1+ / 0-)
          Recommended by:
          TheFern

          It's like saying that it's futile to try to dry up one corner of the bathtub when the rest of it is full.

          Freedom isn't free. Patriots pay taxes.

          by Dogs are fuzzy on Tue Apr 09, 2013 at 11:08:24 AM PDT

          [ Parent ]

          •  That's daffy. (3+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            theatre goon, gerrilea, andalusi

            Guns are not subject to gravity to make them travel over land the way water in a tub flows.

            Guns are not spreading evenly across the landscape. They are an object that requires activation by a person, just like a car or the old english longbow.

            And just like any other tool, they clump together in places where a higher percentage of people feel the need to have such tools. Just like lawn mowers and hedge trimmers clump together in the burbs more than they clump in one of the most densely sardine-packed places on the planet (manhattan).

            I would not be surprised if deep dark blue new york state had more guns per square mile than bright red wyoming - because of the people, not the politics.

      •  According to article, that's not what it was. (8+ / 0-)

        There seems to be some other reason.
        The author specifically mentions that proposition.

        "The United States is a nation of laws: badly written and randomly enforced." -Zappa My Site

        by meagert on Tue Apr 09, 2013 at 09:39:08 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

        •  The premise that gun control fails (4+ / 0-)

          because the laws of the surround cities, counties, states, etc, just doesn't hold up.  Even at the national level, the nations with outright bans are typically the ones with the highest crime and violence rates.  

          •  That's simply not true (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            stevej, TheFern

            For example, the UK has strict gun control. They also define violent crime differently than the US does. By their definition, the UK has more violent crime than the US. By our definition (specifically, the FBI's definition) the US has more violent crime than the UK.

            •  He's talking about Russia, I'd imagine. (0+ / 0-)

              I'm not sure it's possible to draw a conclusion across all countries, though.

            •  Really? Does it matter how "crime" is defined? (4+ / 0-)
              Recommended by:
              oldpunk, ancblu, theatre goon, PavePusher

              I'm a firm believer in letting each nation decide what is a crime by their own societal standards and mores.

              While I may not agree with each definition, it's their own standard.  

              "When you judge me, judge me by my standards and not yours."

              What it does reveal is our cultural differences.  What may be illegal here isn't in Sweden or Denmark.

              Our racist war on drugs has generationally destroyed the African American family, leading to societal instability.  Where once you're "in the system", you stay there most of your life, revolving in and out of jail and "criminal" activity.

              Our society has said that medicinal drugs are illegal.  This has lead to so much violence and destruction, maybe we should rethink this?

              California Marijuana Decriminalization Drops Youth Crime Rate To Record Low: Study

              -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

              by gerrilea on Tue Apr 09, 2013 at 02:44:40 PM PDT

              [ Parent ]

              •  Of course it matters how crime is defined (0+ / 0-)

                In the UK, a shove in a pub is considered a violent crime. In the US, only four specific crimes are put into the violent crime bucket. The only thing that matters is that the US is more violent than the UK. The numbers are apples and oranges.

                noway2 wants us to believe that getting rid of guns doesn't reduce violence. That's a weak argument. Put a loon with a blade in a school and a bunch of people get injured. Put a loon with a gun in a school and a bunch of people get dead.

                •  What you fail to acknowledge here is the (4+ / 0-)

                  arbitrary nature of your position.  We may be a violent nation but that's how we created ourselves, is it not? Out of violent revolution?

                  We used our force to get our way on this continent and beyond.  Is it any wonder we are still that way today? Nope.

                  Our foreign policy is defined by that violence.  Our military industrial complex could not exist if it didn't create a citizenry that was violent.  

                  And why do I say your position is arbitrary?  Because you admit that when comparing us to the UK, it's comparing apples to oranges.  You justify this arbitrary argument as proof that we are more violent, obviously not, by our own standards.  Isn't that what matters in the end? Our own beliefs and social standards?

                  While I wish for those standards to progressively evolve, it cannot be decreed from upon high.  We must work to change ourselves.

                  We have a Constitutional Republic, not a Monarchy, we cannot live like they do, we are not them.  We fought a war to be separate and free from them.  I'd rather not go back to the archaic mentality that those in power "know best".  That's what you'd have me accept.  I do not.

                  As for the point of violence from a gun or a knife, there is no difference, the violence is still there no matter what tool you try to ban.  Unless we address the "loon", the "loon" will still be with us, untreated and forever a threat to all of us. Maybe they won't use a gun or a knife but one of those Monster Trucks and drive it through a crowded playground at recess.  Then what?

                  This assumes that each "loon" has the same motive to kill and not maim.  I only know that I cannot know what a "loons" motivations" are but if we help the person before they become "the loon", we are all much safer and better off in the end.

                  I'd rather work towards a mature, reasoned goal, than meaningless "feel good" measures that will do nothing to help any of us.

                  -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                  by gerrilea on Tue Apr 09, 2013 at 08:06:09 PM PDT

                  [ Parent ]

                  •  Did you just suggest that the UK is a monarchy? (1+ / 0-)
                    Recommended by:
                    coquiero

                    Further, are you suggesting that only those in power favor sensible gun regulation? It would be more accurate to say that the majority of citizens favor sensible gun regulation and that their elected representatives do not.

                    Guns kill a lot of people. Blades and monster trucks do not. Sensible gun regulation and better mental healthcare in this country need not be mutual exclusive. We can have both.

                    •  Just saw this reply, busy weekend with work. (0+ / 0-)

                      I absolutely did "suggest" the UK is a Monarchy.  Do they not have a Queen? Yes.

                      Do their "public servants" swear an allegiance to her and not the people? Yes.

                      Can she suspend her Parliament at any time? Yes.

                      Can she dictate what she wishes to be done? Yes.

                      As for the "majority" claim, I beg to differ.  The facts are that Americans are buying 10 million guns each month, so much so that there is a shortage of ammo and firearms.

                      You fail to accept the reality that humans kill humans, it matters not what the tool is.  Ban guns today, tomorrow ban knives, next week ban sticks and stones.  Man is a violent species. I deal in reality not wishful thinking.

                      -7.62; -5.95 The scientists of today think deeply instead of clearly. One must be sane to think clearly, but one can think deeply and be quite insane.~Tesla

                      by gerrilea on Mon Apr 15, 2013 at 08:56:21 AM PDT

                      [ Parent ]

                      •  Wow (0+ / 0-)

                        So, you're unclear on the concept of a figurehead. Okay. The crown could suspend the parliament, but that would likely result in the end of his/her rule. It's not going to happen.

                        The reality is that the Queen is not going to try to dictate what she wishes to be done. The gig is too good to lose.

                        How about reality on our shores? Very few Americans are buying guns, but they are buying a lot of guns. The number of gun owners shrinks every year.

                        What percentage of Americans do you suppose support background checks for 100% of gun sales? I'm pretty sure that you just said a number close to 100. If not then you are decidedly lacking in your grasp of reality.

                        Man is inherently violent. Guns make it easier to kill more people. That is reality.

                •  You've both missed and made my point (2+ / 0-)
                  Recommended by:
                  Robobagpiper, gerrilea

                  The loon with a knife is a danger.  The loon with a gun is a bigger danger.  The citizen with either is not, yet it is the citizen that is legislated against.

          •  Yeah, Australia and Englad are looking (2+ / 0-)
            Recommended by:
            oldpotsmuggler, TheFern

            horrible here.

            While no gun control regulation or law will solve all the problems, context in terms of socioeconomic conditions and attitudes towards firearms need to be considered in any of these statistics.  Reducing access to various firearms, magazines, concealed carry, etc. are only part of a larger picture - even after tracking supply chains more thoroughly to help investigatory agencies.

            "So, please stay where you are. Don't move and don't panic. Don't take off your shoes! Jobs is on the way."

            by wader on Tue Apr 09, 2013 at 10:37:13 AM PDT

            [ Parent ]

      •  National borders are porous too (6+ / 0-)

        If the drug cartels can run entire chemical plants and build submarines to get their goods to market, they could certainly run machine shops and build guns for export.

        Maybe they'd fall short of demand??

        Freedom isn't free. Patriots pay taxes.

        by Dogs are fuzzy on Tue Apr 09, 2013 at 11:07:10 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

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