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View Diary: Republicans see Chamber of Commerce guest worker deal as too small and worker-friendly (43 comments)

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  •  I disagree. (0+ / 0-)

    1. When undocumented immigrants work, they can't claim the protection of laws setting minimum protections for wages, hours, workplace safety, workers' comp, much less health coverage. And that drives down wages and benefits for everyone in their industry, even citizens. Bring the undocumented into the legal workforce, and those competitive pressures to mistreat all workers are greatly lessened.

    2. The idea that there is a fixed # of jobs is a fallacy. More people = more customers as well as more workers. And if the additional workers must be paid more, that will get more money out of corporate coffers and into circulation, helping the economy and creating jobs.

    3. Undocumented immigrants and their families are human beings. They are just as deserving of having decent homes, enough to eat, etc. as anyone else. The idea that American citizens deserve to live better simply by virtue of being born American is morally corrosive.

    "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

    by HeyMikey on Thu Apr 11, 2013 at 06:13:22 AM PDT

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    •  Zero-sum game (0+ / 0-)

      Geezus, you need to get an education. Jobs are zero-sum. One job given to a scab from India is one less job for a deserving American kid.

      •  Please stop personal attacks. Not zero-sum. (0+ / 0-)

        I have not attacked you personally. You should refrain from attacking others here personally.

        But on the subject of my education, I have read this:

        In economics, the lump of labour fallacy (or lump of jobs fallacy) is the contention that the amount of work available to labourers is fixed. It is considered a fallacy by most economists,[1] who hold that the amount of work is not static. Another way to describe the fallacy is that it treats the demand for labour as an exogenous variable, when it is not. It may also be called the fallacy of labour scarcity, or the zero-sum fallacy.
        Consider that studies show hikes in the minimum wage do not, within reason, reduce the number of minimum-wage jobs. I assume you have no quarrel with that. Then it should be virtually self-evident that increasing the minimum wage actually increases the number of jobs in the economy, since it increases the disposable income of minimum-wage workers, increasing demand.

        If you agree with that, then you agree that the number of jobs is not fixed.

        "The true strength of our nation comes not from the might of our arms or the scale of our wealth, but from the enduring power of our ideals." - Barack Obama

        by HeyMikey on Fri Apr 12, 2013 at 07:44:36 AM PDT

        [ Parent ]

      •  in fact (0+ / 0-)

        there are a lot of people from India who are being hurt by this H1-B crap.  It's even more fun for them.  Companies will call in a person for an interview because they can tell the last name is Indian.  But as soon as the company finds out that the person is a citizen and not an H1-B, they are shown the door.  

        The people on H1-B that annoy me the most are the white guys from the UK and other European countries.  What on earth are they doing here????

    •  hmm... (0+ / 0-)

      You are absolutely right about undocumented immigrants needing protection and being human beings.   In an ideal world, I would agree with you.

      But what ends up happening in this county is that the undocumented immigrants end up being used by Congress for their own purposes.  These people may or may not end up with the wages and benefits that they deserve. But when they are allowed to come to the front of the immigration line, it ticks off people who have jumped through the legal hoops to immigrate here, because they did all the right things---and people who didn't jump through those hoops are the ones being "rewarded".  

      I sympathize with immigrants but just like the rest of us, they are being used.

      So even when something happens in Congress where the undocumented immigrants end up getting what they actually deserve, Congress usually kicks in the teeth of somebody else, whether current citizens or people in the legal immigration process.

      The problem with immigration reform is this:  Congress cannot be trusted to do any kind of immigration reform that will really solve the problems because Congress is only interested in serving business and the rich.  

      As far as the lump of labor fallacy goes, economic truisms are true only as long as the circumstances aren't being manipulated to make the truism no longer true.

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